#7 Battle of BritainDiscuss **** DONE: 1/48 Tamiya Spitfire Mk.I DW-O 610 Sqdn BoB GB in the Group Builds forums; I did end up putting the hand pump in. There also pics of the Eduard armor in my thread if ...
I did end up putting the hand pump in. There also pics of the Eduard armor in my thread if you want to reference that. It looks like it's pretty accurate from the pics I've seen. It shouldn't be tough to make it out some thin sheet styrene. The parts are mostly hidden anyway after the seat's installed and the pit is closed up.
Great info Jason, thanks so much. I have not seen that pic before with the hand pump so thanks.
However, the mystery continues. Here's an excerpt from AP 1565B for the Spitfire II dated July 1940 showing the engine-driven gear controller. Spitfrie II's started rolling off the lines in mid 1940 so did late I's get the engine driven unit? Hmmm.
Looks great Andy and I know the feeling, all the detail just hold one back, but then without the detail and the cussing that goes with it, would we get the satisfaction and all that fun................can't remember the last time I did a straight build.
It was. There's a series of about four airborne, and two or three on the ground. Dates given vary between late June and late July, but I think it's more likely the latter.
Back to the hand pump; from what I've discovered, the pump was replaced with the engine- assisted hydraulic unit on the second production MkIIs, and the last of the MkIs completed but not then issued, the latter being done with the final fitting-out at MUs, and I believe these were in the 'X' serial range.
Being 'R' serial, the aircraft would almost certainly have the hand-pump. Just been reading two different books by pilots, where they have both commented on getting the MkII, and being thankful that the hand pump (of the MkI) had been replaced by the "simple, single lever".
I haven't been able to find any definitive info as to exactly when the MkI had an upgrade, or when the first engine assisted pump-equipped MkIs reached squadrons, in any reliable publication - (including Shacklady, and Price) so far.
Terry, I really appreciate your feedback. Thanks so much.
There's a chap over at 12OCH who posted in March of this year "According to Robertson's book on the Spitfire, an engine driven hydraulic pump was introduced near the end of the Mk. I production. By September 1939 the RAF Spitfires had a mix of hand pumps and engine driven pumps." [Italics mine]
Are you familiar with this Robertson book? The introduction at the end of the the MkI production run jives with what you're saying but the September 1939 date seems odd.
[EDIT - Looking at more stuff tonight, Wiki, referencing Price, says "Also in early 1939 the manual hand-pump for operating the undercarriage was replaced by a hydraulic system driven by a pump mounted in the engine bay." That would support the September 1939 mix]
Last edited by Crimea_River; 09-29-2010 at 11:46 PM.
Yep, seen that info before, and Robertson is normally a reliable source. Bear in mind, Wiki is only as good as the person who enters the info, and where that info comes from originally.
I've had this problem a number of times over the years, trying to determine if a particular airframe had the hand-pump, the engine pump, or was retrofitted, and it's a potential minefield. All I've been able to find is that, the (engine) pump was available for the Merlin III in late 1939, and was tested, but not neccessarily retro-fitted to serving aircraft , and that it's probable that by the 'X' serial range, it was fitted !
However, having talked to a number of Spit pilots in the past, they all commented on the hand-pump, and the skinned knuckles and awkward hand-changing exercise on take-off (throttle to stick, stick to hand-pump etc). They then all mentioned the positive bonus of getting the new system on the MkII, or late MkI, and at least one chap mentioned getting a replacement Spitfire MkI which had undergone major repair after a crash-landing, which had all the new features, including VHF radio and IFF, in late September 1940.
It's one of those"'Do I, don't I?'"' situations, but I have watched possibly all available footage of Spits taking off (during the BoB) and, apart from the uneven retraction being slightly more pronounced with the hand pump, the slight waggling of wings, or porpoising, is also a give away, although lack of 'waggling' etc is not an indication of the new pump being fitted, as it could be a more experienced pilot.
One of these days, I will get a definitive answer !
Thanks once again Terry. I hope I don't appear to be over-challenging you and I totally agree with you on the Wiki thing. My kid could have written that line and he knows as much about Spitifres as my a$$ knows about snipe shooting.
As to the timing thing, with R6595 coming off the line in May 1940 and the first Spit II's arriving with Squadrons in mid June, 1940, do you think it may be likely that my rig got the engine driven pump even though it wasn't in the X series? I note that some of the R's were produced well into late 1940 and even 1941. My info is from here: production page 003
Sorry to flog this topic but I do find it interesting, if not potentially nauseating!
Small update. I decided to add the flare rack, just to pi$$ Terry off!
It was easier than I thought, just drilling at 1mm increments along a metal ruler then cutting the rectangle out. I realize that there was a depth dimension as well but this would be hard to see anyway so will likely leave as is.
I'll need to find a way to offset the rudder pedals a bit as I've decided to crank the rudder a bit to port.
Nice one mate - and it takes a lot to p*ss me off! (see the 'What Annoyed Today' thread!)
As for the hand-pump Vs Engine pump, that one I'll leave down to you! However, personally, I'd go with the hand-pump, especially as the flare rack is fitted, unless you can discover more evidence of the later pump on this machine, or serial block.
Might be worth asking the question over at 'The Spitfire Site' (may be Spitfire Page - can't remember!).
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