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B-17 camouflage

Aircraft Markings and Camouflage Discuss B-17 camouflage in the Technical forums; Also here is something about OD fading away... http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...ment-2222.html...

  1. #16
    Senior Member seesul's Avatar
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    Also here is something about OD fading away... http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...ment-2222.html (Controversy over B-17G "909" color -please comment)

    Last edited by seesul; 12-09-2010 at 04:55 PM.


    ...in memory of my friend Joe Owsianik, a former right waist gunner from B-17G, 42-97159 from 2ndBG 20th Sqdn, who was forced to bail out on Aug. 29th, 1944 over my country. Joe passed away on November 1, 2010.

  2. #17
    Siggy Master Wurger's Avatar
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    Roman...yep the OD colour was very unstable paint. It can be noticed in many pictures of B-17s painted with the colour.




  3. #18
    Benevolens Magister Airframes's Avatar
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    Roman, the OD paint was, as has been mentioned, very unstable and prone to fading and abrasion. Depending on the climate, the paint surface could oxidise to a powdery, rough surface, which in turn could become almost polished by the effects of rain, and airstream etc.
    Those B17s based in the UK tended to appear slightly different in overall tones, compared to those based in Italy - this being the effects of the different climatic conditions at their home bases. Remember, these aircraft spent their entire lives outside, only going in to a hangar, if there was one, for deep servicing, and then endured the extremes of temperature and winds at high altitude.
    The overall appearance of any aircraft finished in OD can vary according to the angle of view and the lighting conditions, more noticeable on large aircraft such as the B17, and, in photographs, by any variation in the original exposure of the film negative (or reversal emulsion in the case of, for example, Kodachrome film), and more so by exposure and processing variations at the printing stage. Add to this the effects of dirt, staining, exhaust heat, and paint-surface wear - from feet, hands, polishing etc, and the variations over an airframe can be very noticeable. Different types of materials - metals, fabrics, compounds etc - will also effect the appearance . Some aircraft were even more prone to the 'battered' look, due to their finished surface skinning, an example being the B26 Marauder.
    Finally, some re-painted or repaired and re-painted areas very well might not have been done using U.S. paints. The colours were often mixed locally, to a close approximation and, certainly in the UK, stocks from RAF sources were often used.





  4. #19
    Senior Member seesul's Avatar
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    Thank you Terry, Wojtek and Bill for your opinions - so whatīs your opinion- did they ever use a primer on B-17s or did the Olive Drab just fade to brown?


    ...in memory of my friend Joe Owsianik, a former right waist gunner from B-17G, 42-97159 from 2ndBG 20th Sqdn, who was forced to bail out on Aug. 29th, 1944 over my country. Joe passed away on November 1, 2010.

  5. #20
    Benevolens Magister Airframes's Avatar
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    Far as I know, there was only a priming undercoat, I believe in grey, but not a true etch-primer. I should have some info somewhere on this, so I'll do a search of my library. Certainly the OD did fade quickly, and even today, similar paints do the same thing. The British Army NATO Green, for example, used before the Infra Red reflective green paint, can fade to a very pale greyish green if not maintained and re-coated, especially on Land Rovers, which have an aluminium body, which is etched and known as 'Birmabright', and has either a pink or light beige primer. The effects of the paint wear on this material / paint combination are very like that of WW2 Olive Drab.





  6. #21
    Senior Member seesul's Avatar
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    Thx Terry, should you dig out something, let me know.


    ...in memory of my friend Joe Owsianik, a former right waist gunner from B-17G, 42-97159 from 2ndBG 20th Sqdn, who was forced to bail out on Aug. 29th, 1944 over my country. Joe passed away on November 1, 2010.

  7. #22
    Benevolens Magister Airframes's Avatar
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    Will do.





  8. #23
    Senior Member seesul's Avatar
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    Interesting - B-17 colors specification
    This link does mention a primer.
    ''Air Corps Spec. 24114 ( 22 Oct. 1940) included primers for the new camouflage finishes. These and the camouflage requirements were....
    AC. 14080 Primer, Metal, Zinc Chromate ( yellow or green)
    AC. 14105 Lacquer, Cellulose Nitrate, Camouflage. (metal)
    AC. 14106 Dope, Pigmented Nitrate, Camouflage,. (fabric)'
    '


    ...in memory of my friend Joe Owsianik, a former right waist gunner from B-17G, 42-97159 from 2ndBG 20th Sqdn, who was forced to bail out on Aug. 29th, 1944 over my country. Joe passed away on November 1, 2010.

  9. #24
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    I've gone back to this panel for a closer look and lifted a flake of loose paint from the edge. Bear in mind this is a stainless-steel panel, not aluminium.



    There is a spray-painted coat of OD FS34084 directly onto the metal, there is no primer coat underneath.
    On top of this is a brush-painted coat of OD FS34086, with lumps and runs.
    I'd guess this top coat was field-applied at some point.

    I also have a section of B-17G-1-VE wing de-icing boot fairing which is factory-painted OD over Zinc Chromate primer on the outside face, bare primer on the inside face.



    All the best,
    PB
    Last edited by ramc181; 12-11-2010 at 09:51 AM.

  10. #25
    Senior Member seesul's Avatar
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    An example of the color on a B-17G.
    This machine served also in Africa and some people say it had a special 'afro camo'. I have never heard about such a scheme.
    So is it something special or it used to be Olive Drab once too?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails B-17 camouflage-color.jpg  


    ...in memory of my friend Joe Owsianik, a former right waist gunner from B-17G, 42-97159 from 2ndBG 20th Sqdn, who was forced to bail out on Aug. 29th, 1944 over my country. Joe passed away on November 1, 2010.

  11. #26
    Benevolens Magister Airframes's Avatar
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    The area immediately around the upper radio room hatch certainly looks as if it might once have been a 'sand' colour Roman. But, like you, I haven't heard (or seen) of any B17s painted in such a scheme. Without physically seeing the surface, it's difficult to give an accurate opinion, but it looks like either very faded OD (especially if it's been in the ground for some time), or perhaps even primer - but there doesn't appear to be any flakes of surface paint over it if it is primer.
    One thing though; in the photo, it looks like the upper, bare metal section is from a different aircraft, and possibly the same, aft section of the hatch opening as the lower section, but missing the internal structure. Or perhaps it is just the forward, internal frame, missing the outer panels?





  12. #27
    Banned antoni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seesul View Post
    An example of the color on a B-17G.
    This machine served also in Africa and some people say it had a special 'afro camo'. I have never heard about such a scheme.
    So is it something special or it used to be Olive Drab once too?
    In North Africa the USAAF used Specification 14057-A/C- Bulletin 48 May 1942 Sand 26 (FS 34133) or HQ Northwest African Air Forces March 1943 Sand No.3 (FS 30277) for camouflage. Sand 26 is a pinkish buff, Sand No.3 greyish.
    Last edited by antoni; 12-19-2010 at 06:03 AM.

  13. #28
    Senior Member seesul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antoni View Post
    In North Africa the USAAF used Specification 14057-A/C- Bulletin 48 May 1942 Sand 26 (FS 34133) or HQ Northwest African Air Forces March 1943 Sand No.3 (FS 30277) for camouflage. Sand 26 is a pinkish buff, Sand No.3 greyish.
    Thatīs very interesting info that Iīve never seen before. Thank you!
    Donīt you have an original of this document?


    ...in memory of my friend Joe Owsianik, a former right waist gunner from B-17G, 42-97159 from 2ndBG 20th Sqdn, who was forced to bail out on Aug. 29th, 1944 over my country. Joe passed away on November 1, 2010.

  14. #29
    Banned antoni's Avatar
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    This will keep you busy for a long time.
    Attached Files

  15. #30
    Senior Member seesul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antoni View Post
    In North Africa the USAAF used Specification 14057-A/C- Bulletin 48 May 1942 Sand 26 (FS 34133) or HQ Northwest African Air Forces March 1943 Sand No.3 (FS 30277) for camouflage. Sand 26 is a pinkish buff, Sand No.3 greyish.
    Were those colors used in a factory or were they later painted over OD in Africa?


    ...in memory of my friend Joe Owsianik, a former right waist gunner from B-17G, 42-97159 from 2ndBG 20th Sqdn, who was forced to bail out on Aug. 29th, 1944 over my country. Joe passed away on November 1, 2010.

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