Otto Kittel's Fw 190s - Aircraft of World War II

Ikerus · 10-25-2009, 02:27 AM

I have information on Otto's planes, but I dont have the RLM numbers for the camo, or any other views of the planes. The book I have show a side view but nothing more, so if there was a personal insignia on it can someone show me what it was. I know that he was a part of JG 54 "Grunhurtz" and so I started there but didnt make it very far.

It can be for any of the FW 190s he flew just put which one had what.

stona · 10-25-2009, 06:34 AM

Hi Ikerus. I have a profile somewhere of the machine (yellow 1) in which he was shot down "behind enemy lines" in 1943.It illustrates perfectly the problem with aircraft operating on this front at this time. They would have been delivered in the standard 74/75 over 76 scheme. The pilots of JG54 realised very quickly that this gave inadequate protection in their new role as they were operating (generally) at much lower altitude and over different terrain. They appear to have ordered the aircraft re-camouflaged in theatre. This was done by applying various greens and browns. These were not standard RLM colours. I suspect they were made by mixing available colours. They operated in close proximity to their bomber and transport aircraft so the greens,70 and 71 as well as the blue 65 would have been available as well as paints for marking (yellow 04,red 23 etc). Some think captured Russian stocks or even tropical RLM colours were used.
Have a look at the colours on this Bf109 from the same unit:

I have experimented mixing RLM colours to achieve something approximating these "Eastern" schemes,but why bother?
I would suggest tracking down a decent profile and then matching it with whatever paints come closest for you.
You will need not only the "Grunherz" and numbers but also Gruppe and Staffel emblems. Luckily ,when they applied the new camouflage they overpainted most stencils so you won't need to worry about them! I'd see if anyone does a decal sheet for one of his aircraft,which should also give you a profile.
I'm assuming you want to do an aircraft on the Eastern front. I think,from increasingly dodgy memory,that he spent most of his carreer there.
Good luck with your project
Steve

piet · 10-25-2009, 08:55 AM

Hi Ikerus

the book that you have is it.... jagdgeschwader 54 Grunherz ( osprey aviation elite no6 ) by john weel?
fw190 a-6 yellow 5 1./jg54 riga 1944
rlm 76,75,83

piet

beaupower32 · 10-25-2009, 11:38 AM

Fw-190 A-7 flown by Oberleutnant Otto Kittel, 3./JG54 JunRiga-Skulte/Latviae 23rd, 1944. Otto Kittel was born on February 21, 1917 in Kronsdorf, in the Sudetenland. Fascinated with flight at an early age, he joined the Luftwaffe in 1939 at age 22. After completing his training, he joined the 2nd Staffel of JG54 with the rank of Unteroffizier. Kittel scored quickly and shot down a SB-2 and Yak-1 on his very first mission, which also happened to be the opening day of Operation Barbarossa, June 22, 1941. It was on June 30, 1941, near Dunaburg, that Kittel would encounter the Russian aircraft known as the 'cementer' or 'butcher' to the German ground troops--the Il-2. The Il-2, or Stormavik, was a heavily armored aircraft, used by the Russians on close-support missions. Standard tactics of the Il-2 was to come in at low level and race across the German positions, bombing and strafing (with 20mm cannon) as they went. The Il-2 was immune to the traditional method of attack used by fighters (rear-quarter attack) because of its armor. The only vulnerable spot was the oil cooler located on the underside. This is what Kittel did and he managed to down two of the beasts on this day. As time progressed, Kittel became so proficient at downing Il-2's, he became known to the German ground troops of Army Group North as the 'butcher-killer'. On February 19, 1943, Feldwebel Kittel scored his 39th victory, which also happened to be JG54's 4,000th of the war. Kommodore Truatloft personally congratulated Kittel and said the following: "I have instructed that you're no longer to be assigned as wingman. Instead you're to be sent on 'frei Jagd" on your own whenever there's an opportunity."
In the next several months, there would be several 'opportunities for Kittel to raise his score. On October 29, 1943 he received the Knights Cross for the 123 victories had achieved. This award was quickly followed by the Oakleaves to the Knights Cross on April 11, 1944, at which time Kittel's score stood at 152. Finally, on November 25, 1944, the swords decoration was added to his Knights Cross for bravery in the face of the enemy and 230 victories. He was also promoted to Oberleutnant at this time. On February 14, 1945, Otto Kittel took off to intercept a flight of Il-2's. Witnesses say that Kittel dove into a formation of 8 of the close-support aircraft. He damaged one but it did not go down, instead disappearing back over the Russian lines, on fire and in serious trouble. Kittel's Fw-190 A-8 "Black 1" (Wk. no. 960282) was hit by return fire from the other Il-2's and burst into flames. The aircraft plummeted to earth, trailing a long sheet of flame and smoke, where it crashed. Otto Kittel had no chance to take to his parachute. In the end, the long time adversary of Kittel finally got him.
Otto Kittel flew 583 combat missions and scored 267 kills, many of them Il-2's, making him the fourth highest scoring ace of all time. He started the war as an Unteroffizier and died as Staffelkapitan of 2./JG54.
Text from The Men of JG 54

stona · 10-25-2009, 12:38 PM

Beaupowers profile is similar to the one I have. Now all you have to do is decide what those greens are and whether any of the original 74/75 is peeking through!
Cheers
Steve

Ikerus · 10-25-2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piet

Hi Ikerus

the book that you have is it.... jagdgeschwader 54 Grunherz ( osprey aviation elite no6 ) by john weel?
fw190 a-6 yellow 5 1./jg54 riga 1944
rlm 76,75,83

piet

Yep that is the book I have, but I also have a different book, that has his Yellow 5 Fw190 A-6. Does someone know what the RLM numbers are for that?

Wurger · 10-26-2009, 07:00 AM

Do you mean this one?

stona · 10-26-2009, 08:02 AM

Yikes. 75/83 over 76 is hard to argue with. I just wonder if the mottle is a bit green maybe RLM 82. Iif you feel one of those colours looks a bit brown then RLM 81 is a possibility!
I'm looking at Merrick's excellent post '41 paint chips as I type but I'm sure you are going to get other opinions.
Cheers
Steve

Wayne Little · 10-26-2009, 08:34 AM

Wouldn't want to make a call on that Osprey Profile! Would rather see a photo of the aircraft first...

stona · 10-26-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Little

Wouldn't want to make a call on that Osprey Profile! Would rather see a photo of the aircraft first...

Is there a good photo anywhere? I've had a quick look in a couple of likely sources with no luck.The profile obviously matches its own colour call, and they must have got their information somewhere.
I could make a case for 81/82 over a late style 76, but as you say without a photo it's difficult to know. Frankly with one,unless it was in colour, we wouldn't be much better off!
All good fun having a guess I suppose.
In the absence of any hard evidence I reckon Ikerus would be just fine going with the profile he has.
Cheers
Steve

Ikerus · 10-26-2009, 03:33 PM

Wurger: yes that is it.

so would it be the 76/83 with 76 on the bottom?

Wurger · 10-26-2009, 04:55 PM

I think it could be RLM 82 rather and RLM76 on sides and bottom. It is very likely because the Fw190A-6 Werk nummer.550528 flown by the I./JG54 commander Hptm.Horst Ademeit in the summer of 1944 was painted in that way ( Kagero Fw190A vol.II). Of course the camo scheme could be completed with RLM 81 mottling.

Ikerus · 10-26-2009, 05:34 PM

do you have any other pictures of that plane, like a color 3 view?

Wurger · 10-26-2009, 09:08 PM

Unfrortunately I don't. But it seems that the plane was of the standard camo scheme for the period of time.To my knowledge the only thing that could be re-painted were fuselages, especially if we are talking about JG54 and JG51.

Ikerus · 10-26-2009, 09:26 PM

ok thanks. would the picture of how the camo was on the planes wings from a different thread that you provided for me be the one to use?

10-25-2009, 02:27 AM	#1
Ikerus Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 35	Otto Kittel's Fw 190s I have information on Otto's planes, but I dont have the RLM numbers for the camo, or any other views of the planes. The book I have show a side view but nothing more, so if there was a personal insignia on it can someone show me what it was. I know that he was a part of JG 54 "Grunhurtz" and so I started there but didnt make it very far. It can be for any of the FW 190s he flew just put which one had what.

10-25-2009, 06:34 AM	#2
stona Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 133	Hi Ikerus. I have a profile somewhere of the machine (yellow 1) in which he was shot down "behind enemy lines" in 1943.It illustrates perfectly the problem with aircraft operating on this front at this time. They would have been delivered in the standard 74/75 over 76 scheme. The pilots of JG54 realised very quickly that this gave inadequate protection in their new role as they were operating (generally) at much lower altitude and over different terrain. They appear to have ordered the aircraft re-camouflaged in theatre. This was done by applying various greens and browns. These were not standard RLM colours. I suspect they were made by mixing available colours. They operated in close proximity to their bomber and transport aircraft so the greens,70 and 71 as well as the blue 65 would have been available as well as paints for marking (yellow 04,red 23 etc). Some think captured Russian stocks or even tropical RLM colours were used. Have a look at the colours on this Bf109 from the same unit: I have experimented mixing RLM colours to achieve something approximating these "Eastern" schemes,but why bother? I would suggest tracking down a decent profile and then matching it with whatever paints come closest for you. You will need not only the "Grunherz" and numbers but also Gruppe and Staffel emblems. Luckily ,when they applied the new camouflage they overpainted most stencils so you won't need to worry about them! I'd see if anyone does a decal sheet for one of his aircraft,which should also give you a profile. I'm assuming you want to do an aircraft on the Eastern front. I think,from increasingly dodgy memory,that he spent most of his carreer there. Good luck with your project Steve Last edited by stona; 10-25-2009 at 07:11 AM.

10-25-2009, 11:38 AM	#4
beaupower32 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Charleston, South Carolina Posts: 721	Fw-190 A-7 flown by Oberleutnant Otto Kittel, 3./JG54 JunRiga-Skulte/Latviae 23rd, 1944. Otto Kittel was born on February 21, 1917 in Kronsdorf, in the Sudetenland. Fascinated with flight at an early age, he joined the Luftwaffe in 1939 at age 22. After completing his training, he joined the 2nd Staffel of JG54 with the rank of Unteroffizier. Kittel scored quickly and shot down a SB-2 and Yak-1 on his very first mission, which also happened to be the opening day of Operation Barbarossa, June 22, 1941. It was on June 30, 1941, near Dunaburg, that Kittel would encounter the Russian aircraft known as the 'cementer' or 'butcher' to the German ground troops--the Il-2. The Il-2, or Stormavik, was a heavily armored aircraft, used by the Russians on close-support missions. Standard tactics of the Il-2 was to come in at low level and race across the German positions, bombing and strafing (with 20mm cannon) as they went. The Il-2 was immune to the traditional method of attack used by fighters (rear-quarter attack) because of its armor. The only vulnerable spot was the oil cooler located on the underside. This is what Kittel did and he managed to down two of the beasts on this day. As time progressed, Kittel became so proficient at downing Il-2's, he became known to the German ground troops of Army Group North as the 'butcher-killer'. On February 19, 1943, Feldwebel Kittel scored his 39th victory, which also happened to be JG54's 4,000th of the war. Kommodore Truatloft personally congratulated Kittel and said the following: "I have instructed that you're no longer to be assigned as wingman. Instead you're to be sent on 'frei Jagd" on your own whenever there's an opportunity." In the next several months, there would be several 'opportunities for Kittel to raise his score. On October 29, 1943 he received the Knights Cross for the 123 victories had achieved. This award was quickly followed by the Oakleaves to the Knights Cross on April 11, 1944, at which time Kittel's score stood at 152. Finally, on November 25, 1944, the swords decoration was added to his Knights Cross for bravery in the face of the enemy and 230 victories. He was also promoted to Oberleutnant at this time. On February 14, 1945, Otto Kittel took off to intercept a flight of Il-2's. Witnesses say that Kittel dove into a formation of 8 of the close-support aircraft. He damaged one but it did not go down, instead disappearing back over the Russian lines, on fire and in serious trouble. Kittel's Fw-190 A-8 "Black 1" (Wk. no. 960282) was hit by return fire from the other Il-2's and burst into flames. The aircraft plummeted to earth, trailing a long sheet of flame and smoke, where it crashed. Otto Kittel had no chance to take to his parachute. In the end, the long time adversary of Kittel finally got him. Otto Kittel flew 583 combat missions and scored 267 kills, many of them Il-2's, making him the fourth highest scoring ace of all time. He started the war as an Unteroffizier and died as Staffelkapitan of 2./JG54. Text from The Men of JG 54 __________________ The four elements: Earth, Air, Water, and Fire. Of these, I call your attention to two: Air and Fire. Though it is your privilege to live in the air, you will die by fire.

10-26-2009, 08:02 AM	#8
stona Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 133	Yikes. 75/83 over 76 is hard to argue with. I just wonder if the mottle is a bit green maybe RLM 82. Iif you feel one of those colours looks a bit brown then RLM 81 is a possibility! I'm looking at Merrick's excellent post '41 paint chips as I type but I'm sure you are going to get other opinions. Cheers Steve Last edited by stona; 10-26-2009 at 08:18 AM.

10-26-2009, 08:34 AM	#9
Wayne Little Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Adelaide Sth. Aust. Posts: 12,511	Wouldn't want to make a call on that Osprey Profile! Would rather see a photo of the aircraft first... __________________

10-25-2009, 08:55 AM	#3
piet Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: nederland zwaag Posts: 182	Hi Ikerus the book that you have is it.... jagdgeschwader 54 Grunherz ( osprey aviation elite no6 ) by john weel? fw190 a-6 yellow 5 1./jg54 riga 1944 rlm 76,75,83 piet

10-25-2009, 12:38 PM	#5
stona Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 133	Beaupowers profile is similar to the one I have. Now all you have to do is decide what those greens are and whether any of the original 74/75 is peeking through! Cheers Steve

10-26-2009, 03:33 PM	#11
Ikerus Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 35	Wurger: yes that is it. so would it be the 76/83 with 76 on the bottom?

10-26-2009, 04:55 PM	#12
Wurger Siggy Master Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Poland Posts: 13,972	I think it could be RLM 82 rather and RLM76 on sides and bottom. It is very likely because the Fw190A-6 Werk nummer.550528 flown by the I./JG54 commander Hptm.Horst Ademeit in the summer of 1944 was painted in that way ( Kagero Fw190A vol.II). Of course the camo scheme could be completed with RLM 81 mottling. __________________

10-26-2009, 05:34 PM	#13
Ikerus Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 35	do you have any other pictures of that plane, like a color 3 view?

10-26-2009, 09:08 PM	#14
Wurger Siggy Master Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Poland Posts: 13,972	Unfrortunately I don't. But it seems that the plane was of the standard camo scheme for the period of time.To my knowledge the only thing that could be re-painted were fuselages, especially if we are talking about JG54 and JG51. __________________

10-26-2009, 09:26 PM	#15
Ikerus Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 35	ok thanks. would the picture of how the camo was on the planes wings from a different thread that you provided for me be the one to use?

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