RLM 74-75-76 during summer 1941

[kingstonian]

Zvezda Bf 109 F2 calls for two tone grays....
however I am almost sure that this was applied November 1941,
so an aircraft operated in June July means that was painted and delivered even earlier.

in particular I am thinking of modelling eirther the "green heart" or the Hahn aircraft ie the circled pattern.

my impression is that it was not even a 70-71 pattern, more like a 71-02 over 65.....



Am I correct in any way or indeed a 74/75/76 could be the case?

thanks

[Wurger]

According to my info the colour set RLM74/75/76 was introduced in 1940. However many of planes in usage didn't get the set untill 1941.These new ones from factories were painted already with the new set. Green Hearts had the non-standard paints used for camouflage often. Concerning Hahn's crate it is said it was of the RLM74/75/76 camo scheme. But I'm not sure if these were the only ones. Look at the pic I have found somewhere via the net. There can be seen a a very light colour on the top of the wing.What is more if we look at the shot more careful we can get impression that there were three colours on the upper surface of the wing. I thought it might have been possible there were RLM74/75/76.

[kingstonian]

thank you....

so i will be safe if I go with the 74-75-76 then......

the funny thing is that a gray-green combo looked better in my imagination but who is me to judge!!!!

regarding the picture it is this fadeness that made me doubt for the RLM 74-75 as t is too light, the chevrons are black so i rule out camera overexposure...that made me imagine of rlm 71-02 wing but now that i am thinking again it is a bit too much.


regarding the green hearts now my other option what is your suggestions for the green tan camo???

[tango35]

Gentlemen,
its very easy, because in Germany during the war ( except for the last phase of WW2 ) all things were regulated. For color question in the Luftwaffe we have the LDv ( LuftwaffenDienstvorschrift) 521.1 :

Pre-war splinter scheme 61/62/63 over 65
Very early fighter biplanes, experimental aircraft 63 overall
Two-green splinter scheme - all aircraft except seaplanes until the ned of 1939, later mostly bombers, transports and ground attack a/c 70/71 over 65
Sea scheme - seaplanes 72/73 over 65
Fighters, until ca. end of 1939 70/71 over 65
Fighters, French campaign and Battle of Britain many different, but often 70/02 over 65
Standard two-tone grey scheme, fighters 1941-1944 74/75 over 76
3-tone desert scheme - aircraft of the African campaign 79/80 over 78
2-tone "Tunisian" desert scheme 79(brown) over 78
Late-war schemes, fighters, 1944-1945 many different combinations of colours from the 80-series, i.e. 81/82 over 76, 82/83 over 76, 81/82 over "84", 82/83 over "84", etc.
Nightfighter scheme 75/76l

hope it helps

Thomas

[Wurger]

All is fine Tango35 if we talk about new planes just assembled and finished in factories. Rules are rules...but... And it it that what makes the German camo schemes interesting.

[Wurger]

regarding the green hearts now my other option what is your suggestions for the green tan camo???

I think you can follow the RLM70/71/76 camo scheme with yellow quick ID elements.

[kingstonian]

Gentlemen,
its very easy, because in Germany during the war ( except for the last phase of WW2 ) all things were regulated. For color question in the Luftwaffe we have the LDv ( LuftwaffenDienstvorschrift) 521.1 :

Pre-war splinter scheme 61/62/63 over 65
Very early fighter biplanes, experimental aircraft 63 overall
Two-green splinter scheme - all aircraft except seaplanes until the ned of 1939, later mostly bombers, transports and ground attack a/c 70/71 over 65
Sea scheme - seaplanes 72/73 over 65
Fighters, until ca. end of 1939 70/71 over 65
Fighters, French campaign and Battle of Britain many different, but often 70/02 over 65
Standard two-tone grey scheme, fighters 1941-1944 74/75 over 76
3-tone desert scheme - aircraft of the African campaign 79/80 over 78
2-tone "Tunisian" desert scheme 79(brown) over 78
Late-war schemes, fighters, 1944-1945 many different combinations of colours from the 80-series, i.e. 81/82 over 76, 82/83 over 76, 81/82 over "84", 82/83 over "84", etc.
Nightfighter scheme 75/76l

hope it helps

Thomas

thanks thomas....

but a slight question....1941 means starting from January ??

anyway i have decided....i will paint that donaught camo for sure.....

one other issue.
the cowling was initially all yellow and had gray oversprayed except the dragon area???

at least that is the case to my poor eyes.....

[Wurger]

The L.Dv.521/1 and 2 instructions were introduced in November 1941. However by August 15, 1941 ( instruction Oberflacheschutzliste 8 Os 109 Fu.G ) Messerschmitt had set forth the new scheme with colours 74/75/76 with fuselage mottle of 02/70/74.

And yes the engine cowling looks like that. However I think it was RLM76.The yellow colour was applied on the bottom part of the engine cowling only.

[kingstonian]

hello again...

now that confused me a bit.

if the regulations were implemented August the earlier we still have the question about the situation before that.

unless I do the repainted bird and all problems solved....(but that rises the question why would the bother to repaint a crate that would be phased out in a short time.....)

in any case modelling is mostly about having a good time.....

[Wurger]

As I had told earlier the RLM74/75/76 camo scheme was already used in 1940 ( Bf109Es in Norway for instance ). The formal confirmation were these both instructions issued in 1941. So the camo scheme was used earlier than the RLM said it officially. What is more all Bf109Fs were painted with the RLM74/75/76 pattern only including the prototype of the F variant.As a result there wasn't any need of repainting all Friedrichs. Unless these were of JG54 Grun Herz that wore RLM70/71/76 "uniforms" mostly.

[phas3e]

The above scheme as official but only used in this Form (Straight edged wings and lighter fuselage colour through the cockpit area) by the WNF factory.
If your aircraft is from Elra or Mtt.Regensburg the scheme will be somewhat different.

And if was painted in the field it could look like anything

[stona]

I'm sure that your F would have left the factory in a 74/75 over 76 scheme. Messerschmitt appears to have applied the new colours several months before we can pick up the paper trail.
I think Wurger mentioned a unit in Norway which was assessing the grey colours. Bf109s appear with various mixed greys, described in crashed enemy aircraft reports,from the early period of what we call the BOB. It seems some units,unhappy with the earlier scheme, were experimenting,mixing greys,and applying them to their aircraft. These seem to have resembled the official RLM74 and RLM75 colours which were formalised slightly later.
This unorthodox camouflage piqued the interest of British interrogators who asked specific questions about it of Luftwaffe airmen captured during the BOB. It's hard to imagine an RAF unit getting away with wholesale modification of the approved schemes on their aircraft!
Cheers
Steve