The Yellow Noses - Aircraft of World War II

Njaco · 10-14-2008, 11:09 AM

Martin Caidin was one of the very first authors I read about WWII aircraft and battles and always thought he was pretty good. Recently some members suggested this wasn't so and as I bow to those with far more knowledge than I, I took their word for it but I still reserved my child memories. Until now.

Today I'm re-reading his account of the Schweinfurt raid, "Black Thursday" and a couple of things caught my eye.

In one passage he mentions "yellow-nosed Fw 190s". IIRC I can't seem to recall any camo on Fw 190s that had yellow noses. Maybe someone can clear that up?

and second....

pg 200 there is this paragraph,

"The enemy fighters were marked with a dazzling variety of colors and stripes. Me-109s were distinctive with gleaming paint surfaces that featured an orange-colored nose and underside of the cowling, with the rest of the airplane black. Several Fw 190s were completely yellow and polished to a high gloss. Me-110s had a large yellow patch on the center underside of the airplanes and many Ju-88s were seen with all-white bellies and multi-colored striped tops.

The 3d Air Division reported still further variations in fighter identifications. They saw Ju-88s with all-black bellies and upper surfaces painted cream or white. Me-109s appeared with green bellies and the rest of the aircraft all silver. The four-engined Fw-200K Kuriers were all painted silver. Several Fw 190s were seen with yellow noses and green cowlings, and the He-177 four-engined bombers appeared in mixed black-and-white color scheme."

Some of these camo colors I've never seen or heard of! Anybody have any ideas?

rochie · 10-14-2008, 11:19 AM

njaco i've posted a question about an all yellow fw190 after reading about one in the big show by pierre clostermann he describes christian martell blowing up an all yellow a6 in the air after a long one on one dogfight on 27 july 1943 he also believed it to belong to jg2, no respone though so i look forward to you being more succsesful !

Erich · 10-14-2008, 12:00 PM

pretty simple gents, JG 1 and JG 11 and JG 26 had yellow ID undercowlings. There Were NO all yellow nosed birds except in JG 1 for a very very short time in it's 1st staffel with yellow prop or an all yellow nose, but it was not common with the whole staffel.

JG 1 then later in 43 early 44 went with black/white horizontal stripes for the I. gruppe

rochie · 10-14-2008, 12:04 PM

thanks Erich

Njaco · 10-14-2008, 04:41 PM

I agree, Erich, I know yellow undercowlings were used but I could'nt get past a yellow nose except Hermann Graf's with his yellow and red nose similar to Rot 17 in Rochie's sig.

How about the other descriptions? Silver Fw 200s? Something didn't jive.

Erich · 10-14-2008, 04:58 PM

originally the JG 26 Geschwader was nicknamed the yellow nosers or Abbeville Kids............pretty goofy really.

yellow id marks on the undercowling on the 109's and Fw 190A's

Airframes · 10-14-2008, 05:50 PM

Perhaps he/they (Caidin, and the aircrews concerned) meant the yellow front cowling ring on the FW190's encountered?
As for the other schemes quoted, it does seem bizzar, but, who knows how a 'colour' might have appeared, allowing for the light and conditions at altitude, and in the heat of combat? It's not the first time I have heard, or read, about such things, when authors, sometimes themselves the pilot(s) concerned, have described, for example, "..the black belly of the Me109...", when it is known that the aircraft concerned was not 'black bellied', but in one of the 'standard' camouflage schemes. It is irritating though, isn't it?

Erich · 10-14-2008, 06:07 PM

there was no yellow cowling ring till 1945. no as the Fw's turned over to pass through the heavy bomber formations the undercowling is plainly seen

Airframes · 10-14-2008, 07:21 PM

Ah! Sorry Erich. I hadn't read the part about the actual mission properly.
Now I understand, which makes it more irritating when descriptions are, presumably, incorrect!
Terry.

Erich · 10-14-2008, 07:40 PM

well T even with explaining to some of the B-24/B-17 crewmen over the many years they still firmly believe what they saw to this day ..........

ah well

the nose ring became a theater marking especially on the Ost front but also some of the Fw 190A-8 and A-9's of JG 301 used a yellow ring in 1945 along with their defense band of red/yellow, which to me even if it was for the young inexperienced pilot of the JG to form up on the leader what a stupid invitation for Mustangs to come on over and shoot them down.

E ~

Njaco · 10-14-2008, 07:45 PM

Erich, how well known were the camo markings for the LW in 1960? If I had a gunner tell me he saw a purple plane with orange polkadots, I wouldn't begrudge his recollection but I would investigate further, knowing that that marking would be extraordinary. As this book was written in '59-60 maybe the markings weren't as precise as today?

Airframes · 10-14-2008, 08:24 PM

That's a good point, Njaco. I still have some reference books I either bought, or was given, in the '60's, and it is apparent that a lot more detailed information is available today.

Erich · 10-14-2008, 08:36 PM

obviously the colour interpretors were not there, the photos were in collections, the LW veterans were still amongst us not in dwindling numbers like today, but you get my point in this case you cannot teach old men new tricks when it comes to camo of Lw A/C as it was way too varied. one of the considerable problems is having single engine 109's flying from night fighter staffels during 1944, and the noting of all blue or all black and black/blue 109's ............. yes there sure were on daylight ops. All white was reported for twin engine Ju 88 and Bf 100g's which is typical browning out-cream winter camo used in late 43-early 44 years

Njaco · 10-14-2008, 09:15 PM

understood. Thnx!

rochie · 10-15-2008, 03:00 PM

found this and was wondering how real it was it seems to be the fw190 described in the big show or is it someone else's idea of what that aircraft should look like ?
source profile publications

10-14-2008, 11:09 AM	#1
Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States Posts: 10,228	The Yellow Noses Martin Caidin was one of the very first authors I read about WWII aircraft and battles and always thought he was pretty good. Recently some members suggested this wasn't so and as I bow to those with far more knowledge than I, I took their word for it but I still reserved my child memories. Until now. Today I'm re-reading his account of the Schweinfurt raid, "Black Thursday" and a couple of things caught my eye. In one passage he mentions "yellow-nosed Fw 190s". IIRC I can't seem to recall any camo on Fw 190s that had yellow noses. Maybe someone can clear that up? and second.... pg 200 there is this paragraph, "The enemy fighters were marked with a dazzling variety of colors and stripes. Me-109s were distinctive with gleaming paint surfaces that featured an orange-colored nose and underside of the cowling, with the rest of the airplane black. Several Fw 190s were completely yellow and polished to a high gloss. Me-110s had a large yellow patch on the center underside of the airplanes and many Ju-88s were seen with all-white bellies and multi-colored striped tops. The 3d Air Division reported still further variations in fighter identifications. They saw Ju-88s with all-black bellies and upper surfaces painted cream or white. Me-109s appeared with green bellies and the rest of the aircraft all silver. The four-engined Fw-200K Kuriers were all painted silver. Several Fw 190s were seen with yellow noses and green cowlings, and the He-177 four-engined bombers appeared in mixed black-and-white color scheme." Some of these camo colors I've never seen or heard of! Anybody have any ideas? __________________ "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!" http://www.njcacoa.org/

10-14-2008, 11:19 AM	#2
rochie Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: billingham nr middlesbrough uk Posts: 3,100	njaco i've posted a question about an all yellow fw190 after reading about one in the big show by pierre clostermann he describes christian martell blowing up an all yellow a6 in the air after a long one on one dogfight on 27 july 1943 he also believed it to belong to jg2, no respone though so i look forward to you being more succsesful ! __________________ "We're not easily frightened. Also we know how hard it is for an army to cross the Channel — the last little corporal to try it came a cropper. So don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! ...and even then we won't listen!" quote from B.O.B movie

10-14-2008, 12:04 PM	#4
rochie Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: billingham nr middlesbrough uk Posts: 3,100	thanks Erich __________________ "We're not easily frightened. Also we know how hard it is for an army to cross the Channel — the last little corporal to try it came a cropper. So don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! ...and even then we won't listen!" quote from B.O.B movie

10-14-2008, 04:41 PM	#5
Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States Posts: 10,228	I agree, Erich, I know yellow undercowlings were used but I could'nt get past a yellow nose except Hermann Graf's with his yellow and red nose similar to Rot 17 in Rochie's sig. How about the other descriptions? Silver Fw 200s? Something didn't jive. __________________ "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!" http://www.njcacoa.org/

10-14-2008, 07:45 PM	#11
Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States Posts: 10,228	Erich, how well known were the camo markings for the LW in 1960? If I had a gunner tell me he saw a purple plane with orange polkadots, I wouldn't begrudge his recollection but I would investigate further, knowing that that marking would be extraordinary. As this book was written in '59-60 maybe the markings weren't as precise as today? __________________ "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!" http://www.njcacoa.org/

10-14-2008, 12:00 PM	#3
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	pretty simple gents, JG 1 and JG 11 and JG 26 had yellow ID undercowlings. There Were NO all yellow nosed birds except in JG 1 for a very very short time in it's 1st staffel with yellow prop or an all yellow nose, but it was not common with the whole staffel. JG 1 then later in 43 early 44 went with black/white horizontal stripes for the I. gruppe

10-14-2008, 04:58 PM	#6
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	originally the JG 26 Geschwader was nicknamed the yellow nosers or Abbeville Kids............pretty goofy really. yellow id marks on the undercowling on the 109's and Fw 190A's

10-14-2008, 05:50 PM	#7
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,030	Perhaps he/they (Caidin, and the aircrews concerned) meant the yellow front cowling ring on the FW190's encountered? As for the other schemes quoted, it does seem bizzar, but, who knows how a 'colour' might have appeared, allowing for the light and conditions at altitude, and in the heat of combat? It's not the first time I have heard, or read, about such things, when authors, sometimes themselves the pilot(s) concerned, have described, for example, "..the black belly of the Me109...", when it is known that the aircraft concerned was not 'black bellied', but in one of the 'standard' camouflage schemes. It is irritating though, isn't it?

10-14-2008, 06:07 PM	#8
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	there was no yellow cowling ring till 1945. no as the Fw's turned over to pass through the heavy bomber formations the undercowling is plainly seen

10-14-2008, 07:21 PM	#9
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,030	Ah! Sorry Erich. I hadn't read the part about the actual mission properly. Now I understand, which makes it more irritating when descriptions are, presumably, incorrect! Terry.

10-14-2008, 07:40 PM	#10
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	well T even with explaining to some of the B-24/B-17 crewmen over the many years they still firmly believe what they saw to this day .......... ah well the nose ring became a theater marking especially on the Ost front but also some of the Fw 190A-8 and A-9's of JG 301 used a yellow ring in 1945 along with their defense band of red/yellow, which to me even if it was for the young inexperienced pilot of the JG to form up on the leader what a stupid invitation for Mustangs to come on over and shoot them down. E ~

10-14-2008, 08:24 PM	#12
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,030	That's a good point, Njaco. I still have some reference books I either bought, or was given, in the '60's, and it is apparent that a lot more detailed information is available today.

10-14-2008, 08:36 PM	#13
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	obviously the colour interpretors were not there, the photos were in collections, the LW veterans were still amongst us not in dwindling numbers like today, but you get my point in this case you cannot teach old men new tricks when it comes to camo of Lw A/C as it was way too varied. one of the considerable problems is having single engine 109's flying from night fighter staffels during 1944, and the noting of all blue or all black and black/blue 109's ............. yes there sure were on daylight ops. All white was reported for twin engine Ju 88 and Bf 100g's which is typical browning out-cream winter camo used in late 43-early 44 years

10-14-2008, 09:15 PM	#14
Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States Posts: 10,228	understood. Thnx! __________________ "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!" http://www.njcacoa.org/

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