P-39Q models.

Versatile · 07-13-2005, 12:55 PM

I have done much research and have (i think) determined the location of three P-39's that landed on a frozen lake. The Russian plots walked for three days to civilization. At that time the lake had no name. I have put a name to it. I also spoke to the doctor that reated them. These were to be Lend-Lease AC and since they never completed the trip they were never paid for. To my understanding the Canadians cannot claim them as theirs. I have started twice to after them. The first trip was cancelled due to the death of my father. The second trip was cancelled because the investor i had showed his greed before i was locked in. I have an agreement with a Canadian that i gave my word too. The investor said he had no agreement and it was his money and he would do what he wanted. I am glad he showed his true self. So if you want a P-39Q model with about 15 hrs on it. Let me know.

FLYBOYJ · 07-13-2005, 02:02 PM

This all sounds good but I hope you're in the know on how to actually salvage an aircraft from a crash site. You're going to have to know how to take the aircraft apart without damaging it and prepare it for movement, which I would assume would be by flatbed.

I did aircraft salvage work early in my career, it could be a real challenge and sometimes dangerous.

evangilder · 07-13-2005, 02:11 PM

Thanks for bringing that up, J. I was going to ccomment that there is alot to a recovery like that. If you've never done it, it's best to get with someone who has. There are alot of things to think about, like you mentioned. Plus you may have to deal with local environmental issues due to fuel, oil, etc. The chances of flying out a 60+ year old airplane are very slim.

FLYBOYJ · 07-13-2005, 02:23 PM

I worked for Aviation Warehouse in the late 1970s. They used to do most of the salvage and crash recovery in the LA area. When working in his storage yard I actually had a fuselage section of a DC-6 crush my toes!

Versatile · 07-13-2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

This all sounds good but I hope you're in the know on how to actually salvage an aircraft from a crash site. You're going to have to know how to take the aircraft apart without damaging it and prepare it for movement, which I would assume would be by flatbed.

I did aircraft salvage work early in my career, it could be a real challenge and sometimes dangerous.

.

I have done much logistical research in the past for people recovering or attempting to recover aircraft. I totally agree with you that you need to know what you are doing. These P-39's did not crash; they ran outta fuel and landed on a lake. Water depth is 40 ft. Don't know if they have been ice crushed or if tannic acid did it's thing on them. I do know that they went down with the spring thaw. One plus is that all Bell aircraft had the serial number of the aircraft of each piece and the serial number on the tail in big numbers. These aircraft had belly tanks on them. Did the go down inverted? Don't know? The actual method of recovery is still up in the air until one goes on site. First thing is get the serial numbers and get ownership first. Getting ownership is in itself another subject totally. I won't go into that here at this time. One major plus for this project is that no helicopter is required.

Versatile · 07-13-2005, 02:28 PM

[ The chances of flying out a 60+ year old airplane are very slim.[/quote]

Being totally humorus i must ask."What have you been smoking"?

evangilder · 07-13-2005, 02:32 PM

Okay, it's good you are aware of the logistic headaches that you can come up against. You might try contacting the folks at Chino at either Yanks museum or the Planes of Fame museum. I know that they have gotten recovered aircraft from all over. They may be able to help you find a serious investor. But make sure that you have reasonable terms. These guys are serious. If you can locate and contact Bruce Fenstermacher, he might be a wealth of info. He was the guys that recovered our Zero. He has recovered a number of old aircraft in the Pacific and should be able to give you some guidance not only with recovery efforts, but with finding and negotiating with investors.

Versatile · 07-13-2005, 02:41 PM

Thanks for the info. I have sold tires or parts to many of the Chino crowd. In fact one of these individuals at Chino is waiting for me to do the recovery. I was doing research on these ac back in the 90's when it cost about 45 cents per minute to call Canada. I am just an old burn out from the war bird parts world

evangilder · 07-13-2005, 02:49 PM

Sorry about the comment on flying them out. You initially stated they landed on a frozen lake. I made an assumption that it was a permafrost lake that was still frozen. I didn't realize it had thawed and they were now underwater. That does make them essentially unflyable for a bit!

I wonder what kind of shape they will be in if they're only in about 40 feet. I would venture to guess they are in pretty bad shape, but you never know.

FLYBOYJ · 07-13-2005, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Versatile

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

This all sounds good but I hope you're in the know on how to actually salvage an aircraft from a crash site. You're going to have to know how to take the aircraft apart without damaging it and prepare it for movement, which I would assume would be by flatbed.

I did aircraft salvage work early in my career, it could be a real challenge and sometimes dangerous.

.

I have done much logistical research in the past for people recovering or attempting to recover aircraft. I totally agree with you that you need to know what you are doing. These P-39's did not crash; they ran outta fuel and landed on a lake. Water depth is 40 ft. Don't know if they have been ice crushed or if tannic acid did it's thing on them. I do know that they went down with the spring thaw. One plus is that all Bell aircraft had the serial number of the aircraft of each piece and the serial number on the tail in big numbers. These aircraft had belly tanks on them. Did the go down inverted? Don't know? The actual method of recovery is still up in the air until one goes on site. First thing is get the serial numbers and get ownership first. Getting ownership is in itself another subject totally. I won't go into that here at this time. One major plus for this project is that no helicopter is required.

I could tell you if they hit the water and sank - they are damaged, even if they were full stalled with gear up. At 30 knots a reinforced structure .040 thick will buckle. The good news is that if they are in cold water and didn't freeze they are probably going to be in excellent condition. Tannic acid shoudn't be a probelm if the enviornment was cold most of the year. To clean out submerged aircraft structures that were in fresh water, we would just re-submerge the structure in a clean, cold distilled water dough boy pool. In Alaska I've heard of whole fuselages being recovered from lakes and then placed in a flowing river (anchored down of course). After a few days the fuselage is free of sediment and clean.

If you have the means to dive to the site and fish the aircraft from the lake you have to make sure that no sediment is embedded within the structure that would "unbalance" the load or stress the airframe when being raised from the water. Additionally you would have to know how lift the airframe without damaging it.

The last challenge is disassembly for transport. If the aircraft is to be restored and flown all major assemblies need to come apart as the aircraft needs to be thoroughly inspected. I don't know how a P-39 comes apart but I'm sure there are some type of "HI-LOC" or JO-BOLT fastener holding the wings on. These are steel pins installed through the aluminum structure making an immediate corrosion source.

I've seen people recover aircraft who didn't know what they were doing and actually cut wings and fuselages in half thinking they could just rivet everything back together!