Planes that flew in Poland 1939 and their performances

toffigd · 10-03-2005, 06:07 AM

But did they have any other choice...?

And I think, I should mention, that after 17th of Sept. 1939 also Russian aircraft like I-15, I-153, I-16, R-5, SB-2 or Po-2 appeared over Poland.

Gnomey · 10-03-2005, 06:22 AM

They were brave to take to the skies against superior opposition and a do admire them highly, they also achieved some success as well.

plan_D · 10-03-2005, 10:01 AM

I didn't actually know the P.50 prototypes got into service during the German invasion. I thought they wanted them to but they were abandoned, or it was all over before they had chance.

Interesting that the P.24 was never accepted by Poland. It was much better than the P.11, not only did it out-perform but it was also was cannon armed.

The P.7 couldn't even catch the German bombers flying over Poland. That's how out-dated they were, but there were only thirty in service in 1939.

Toffigd, do you know of any air action between the Polish and Soviet air forces? I imagine most of the Polish aircraft would have been smashed by then by the Luftwaffe.

toffigd · 10-03-2005, 12:21 PM

The two P.50 prototypes were used in Sept. 1939 not to get into German hands.
One of them was shot down by Polish AA artillery on 2nd of Sept. while flying to Lwow, as the gunners had no idea, that these low wing fighters were used by their own air force. All Polish fighters were upper wing ones, besides these two.
The second one probably got damaged in Warsaw during an air raid and left in PZL (Polskie Zaklady Lotnicze - Polish Aerial Factories) factory nearby the Okecie airfield. None of the prototypes had contact with German aircraft.

The P.24 wasn't accepted by Polish Air Force because of its' not much revolutionary design. It was just a P.11 fitted with better engine, covered canopy and cannons. The decision was to export these, as aircraft like P.50 was supposed to be manufactured soon.
The P.50 had worse performances than expected (not enough powerful engine), and the next one, the P.62 was to see service in 1942. That's why the P.24 were exported. P.50 was to be far better than P.24. As it wasn't, in Sept. 1939 Polish pilots had to face enemy with P.7 and P.11 only...

After 17th Sept. there was no interaction between Polish and Russian aircraft, mostly because of the fact, that by this day the Polish Air Force was completely destroyed or evacuated mostly to Romania. Only three (3) P.11 (2 P.11c and one P.11a) were still in service in Poland. On 18th of Sept. one of the P.11c was badly damaged and abandoned. The second one was evacuated to Hungary and the P.11a to Latvia.

But on 17th of Sept. 1939 there were three interactions.
First - a dogfight between a single P.11c (reconnaissance mission near the Polish border) and one I-16 and two biplanes - I-15bis or I-153. The two biplanes were badly damaged by ppor. (2nd lt) S. Zatorski whom was injured and crashed (died of wounds).
Second - a reconnaissance biplane R-5 shot down by ppor. T. Koc flying a recon mission on P.11c near Stanislawow.
Third - two of three SB-2 bombers bombing a railway station shot down near Stanislawow by unknown pilot while his evacuation flight to Romania. Third SB-2 was damaged and crashed later near Ottynia.

(Info took from "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie w boju wrzesniowym" by J. B. Cynk.)

plan_D · 10-03-2005, 09:59 PM

That's quite a foolish reason not to accept the P.24. The fact of the matter is it was better than the P.11 so they should have had it. Not that it'd have been able to match the Me-109. It's good to know though, and interesting information on the P.50.

That's also interesting about the Russian engagements. It'd have been interesting to see a proper aerial war between the Polish and Russians.

By the way, what is the name for the Polish air force? I imagine it's Polish Air Force in Polish...but y'know, it's always good to know.

toffigd · 10-04-2005, 01:52 AM

I don't think it was foolish not to accept the P.24. In 1940, 300 P.50 was supposed to see service (after appearance the problems with engine, 300 were cut to only 30).
Of course You could say, that the war was coming, but till May 1939 no one expected it will start in Sept. Unfortunately, it was too late to re-equip with P.24...

And about in 1940-42 Poland was supposed to have a modern air force with all brand new fighters like P.50 (prototype), P.62 (project), P.48 Lampart (project of heavy double engined fighter), bombers like Los (seen service in Sept.), Mis (project), Sum (prototype), recon like LWS-3 (prototypes), LWS-7 (project) or floatplanes like RWD-22 (project).

And the name for Polish Air Force is Polskie Sily Powietrzne.

toffigd · 10-04-2005, 01:56 AM

I forgot to say, that in Sept. 1939 there was a single CANT Z.506B Airone in use. Six of these were ordered in Italy in 1938, but till Sept. only one reached Poland.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-04-2005, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toffigd

But did they have any other choice...?

And I think, I should mention, that after 17th of Sept. 1939 also Russian aircraft like I-15, I-153, I-16, R-5, SB-2 or Po-2 appeared over Poland.

I agree you have to defend you homeland.

d_bader · 10-04-2005, 10:28 AM

Thanks everyone!

I no it was lazy but I didn't really think about google but once it had been suggested I looked but didn't find as much information as I had suspected.

Thanks especially to deradler and toffigd!

I got loads of info now but dont want to stop the conversation because its definetly going somewhere.

thanks d_bader

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 10-04-2005, 11:33 AM

No problem anytime.

toffigd · 10-04-2005, 11:39 AM

Any questions about Polish aircraft and air force in Sept. 1939 - just ask

Quote:

I agree you have to defend you homeland.

This defence could be far more effective if the bombers were properly used. Giving the PZL P.37b Los ground attack tasks was not the best idea...

d_bader · 10-04-2005, 03:05 PM

toffigd: are there any particular websites where you got this info from?

I would be very grateful to know.

Cheers d_bader

toffigd · 10-05-2005, 01:52 AM

I took this info from my books. I prefer them than websites.

d_bader · 10-05-2005, 01:04 PM

toffigd: You've been very helpful and I am very grateful for the info but I was wondering how many of each plane you listed were in service for 1st September 1939.

Cheers Bader

P.s You polish lot were amazing during WW2!

toffigd · 10-05-2005, 03:55 PM

I've placed an info about number of these types that were in use on 1st Sept. 1939, but i'll repeat it for you:

Fighters:

PZL P.11c (seen operational service in Sept. 1939 - 110/totally built - 175)
PZL P.11a (20/50)
PZL P.7a (31/150)
PZL P.50 Jastrzab -> prototypes (1/2)

Bombers:

PZL P.23a & b Karas (120/250)
PZL P.43b (5/?) -> an export version of Karas
PZL P.37b Los (45/124)
LWS-4a Zubr (0/16)
CANT Z.506B Airone (1/1)

Reconnaissance:

Lublin R-XIIID (50/253)
Lublin R-XIIIter -> floatplane (20/20)
RWD-14 Czapla (?/65)
LWS-3 Mewa (?/?)