Some Sturmbock questions

[Erich]

Don I wished you could have viewed and maybe you did some years ago our "Sturmgruppen missions 1944"

your question is a tough one to answer since I have not seen a 2./JG 51 SturmFw in the colours of red stripes on the spinner and Adlerflugel. only an August 1944 photo showing the red number, the motorhaube was painted in the usual greys, the colors had been removed.

they should of had the red trim in Junes end through July before it was all removed and repainted or new a/c came in like I had said without any colours but painted up like any other Fw 190A in the ETO defense of the Reich.

to your first question yes they should of had the JG 3 winged U on the blue-black Motorhaube on both sides as well of the engine cowling.

E ~

[donnerherz]

Hello again Erich,

here I´m back with new questions referring to the fighter escort a/c of IV./JG3 in June and July of 1944.

I`ve read that there was a "Höhenbegleitjäger" (high altitude escort fighters) escort unit consisted of Bf109G-6/AS to give top cover for the sturms of IV./JG3.
These a/c were painted overall in plain white color with black or yellow solid numbers.
In other sources I´ve read from two IV./JG3 "Begleitgruppen" (escort wings) of I./JG300 commanded by Gerhard Stamp and of II./JG300 commanded by Kurt Peters.
Did all three units provide top cover for the sturms of IV./JG3 in June/July of 1944?
As far as I know II./JG300 was a Sturmgruppe equipped with the heavyweighted and rather unmanouverable Fw190 sturmbocks only - totally unsuitable for providing fighter escort?

Thanks a lot again and greetings from germany, Don

[Erich]

first Sturm./JG 3 never flew ops in June of 44 against the US A/F they were involved in ground attack missions in Normandie and then retreated back into Germany to perfect the Sturm-like tactics that made them and II.Sturm/JG 300 famous.

Sturmstaffel 1 had Bf 109G-6/AS fighters fly top cover for them in April-May of 44 the 109's were painted a very faded blue-white-grey. It was all of I./JG 3 that had 3 staffeln, white, black and yellow numbers on their 109's.

Gerhard Stamp who commanded I./JG 300 came up with the official idea of a high cover gruppe for JG 300 and IV./JG 3 as a Gefechtsverband attack with his gruppe flying a 1000 feet higher and slightly back behind the Fw's when approaching the rear of the US heavy bomber formations, of course they were to attack and engage any US fighter escorts and when none were in the air which was rare they would attack from aobve and slightly below on the bombers.

they flew a mix of G-6 and G-6/AS fighters.

II.Sturm/JG 300 was just like IV.Sturm/JG 3 in that the Fw's were heavily armored but did have regular A-8's flown by pilots that did not want the heavier model. during a mission there was always one staffel of the gruppe that flew a higher protective op though they always attacked the bombers as well.

verstehen ?

E ~

[donnerherz]

Hello Erich, so the first link shows the wrong a/c "Höhenbegleitjäger" Bf109G-6/AS of IV./JG3, right?

http://www.rafiger.de/Homepage/FBMus...9-G6AS-JG3.jpg

And the second link shows the correct escort fighters of Sturmstaffel 1?

http://www.rafiger.de/Homepage/FBMus...109-IV-JG3.jpg

The correct escort fighters of IV./JG3 in July 44 were Bf109G-6 of I./JG300 (with the red fuselage band), and some regular A8s of II./JG300, right?

Thank you very much, Don

[seesul]

Originally Posted by Erich

white numbers with no black outline for 10th staffel, later the 13th in August of 1944. Red numbers for 2./JG 51, later the 16th Sturmstaffel. each staffel had up to 15 a/c. though I was told by several pilot friends that normally only 10-12 flew on the missions while the others were in the sop getting overhauled and or patched up due to aerial action in combat.

there are NO profiles that I know of showing 2./JG 51 or 16th staffel SturmFw's.

Klaus Neumann retreated into himself after the war and with very little contact to any historians, but did say he had much regret for taking so many American lives. He lived alone and then in an old foster day care center in Germany before he died. It is reported the man had a huge photo album of his time in IV.Sturm/JG 3 and as far as we know no-one had ever seen his photos. I can only make a guess that his Familie took the photos and burned them or threw them away as they have not been printed in any books........again this is what I have been told back in the 1990's.

E ~

Oh, what a pity Erich! Do you know if Klaus had any children?

[donnerherz]

Hello Erich,

how are you?

At the moment I`ve need answers to the following bunch of questions:

1. When did the props colours of the Sturmstaffel aircraft change from plain black to black/white spiral - and did this happen together with the change of the upper wings Balkenkreuze (from black/white to only white outlined)?

2. The Me109 fighter escort of the Sturmstaffel were all of I./JG3 you wrote.
Is this true from the first Sturmstaffel days until to the last?

3. So these Me109s did not have the white fuselage band with ~, cause this was distinctive for the IV. Gruppe only, right?

4. Did the Me109s from IV./JG3 fly top cover for the Sturmstaffel, too - and if yes when did they replace their G6 through 190A8 Sturms (becoming a sturmgruppe, and Sturmstaffel 1 was disbanded)?

A lot of complicated questions, I know, but I´m sure you know the answers, Erich.

Thanks a lot and greetings from germany,
Don

[Erich]

Roman I have no clue, he was pretty much alone most of his after war life....

# 1 probably by March of 44

# 2 JG 1 offered Bf 109G's for protection, I./JG 3 only offered and it was not always Sturmstaffel 1 from April till Normandie invasion of 44

# 3 Bf 109G-6/AS of I./JG 3 had no white band at all and no distinctive markings except to be painted in overall RLM 76 blue-grey.

# 4 the 109's were transferred out very slowly in may of 44 and acceptance of the Fw 190A-8 and A-8/R2's. the 109's did not form high group protection but had underwing 2cm waffen-pods for bomber killing. On May 8th of 44 the old pilots of Sturmstaffel 1 was the basis of the SturmFw section of IV./JG 3 becoming the new 11th staffel.

[donnerherz]

Hello Erich,

need to know more details about 109G6/AS of I./JG3.

1. Did these a/c had all the solid black markings (all Balkenkreuze and swastika without any white colour) like "Black 14" (Horst Petzschler) did?

2. Did all of these a/c had yellow painted underengines and yellow wing tipps (under wing only or under and upper?)?

Needless to say "thanx a lot" and greetings from germany, Don

[Erich]

at first there was no Spiralschnauze in white and then later applied. All blue grey ~ Hellgrau 109G-6/AS had black markings in 2nd staffel like Horst P's. No yellow wing tips though some say they did. It does appear that Schwarze 14 had a yellow under engine cowling but the other 2nd staffel G-6/AS appear not to have it applied. This would of helped though of course for other gruppen a/c to ID the 109's properly. So this is still in question. 1st staffel had white numbers outlined in Black. as for 3rd staffel I do not know.

Once the Normadnie invasion started the I. gruppe machines were painted back into the light and dark grey mottling with a dark fuselage spine and then the wide white Reichsverteidigung band was applied behind the Balkenkreuz. The white Spiralschnauze was standard over the black prop.

Greetings to you and yours

E ~

[donnerherz]

Okay Erich,

after all I do know now it seems that the "high altitude fighters" 109G6AS of JG3 did fly high cover for the Sturmstaffel 1 only for a very short time period (three weeks or so?).

Horst Petzschler as the "instigator" of this unit was transferred to I./JG3 at April 13th 1944. And the Sturmstaffel 1 did become 11./JG3 on May 8th 1944.

1. So a historical correct scenario of Sturmstaffel 1 protected by 109G6/AS "high altitude fighters" of I./JG3 flying a mission versus USAAF is not possible, right?

2. How did the 109s of JG1 look in April/May 1944? Did they fly protective missions for Sturmstaffel 1 in this time period, too?

Thank you very much, Don

[Erich]

yes I./JG 3 flew high escort mission for Sturmstaffel 1 in April of 44 against US heavy bombers, the 109's took on P-51B's and then also heavy bombers.

I cannot say for fact what the JG 1 109's looked like at the time but probably very light greys-blue as well, later in 1944 they had this camo pattern.

E ~

[donnerherz]

Thank you Erich!

That´s great (the possible historical correct scenario mentioned above)!

What is still confusing me are the balkenkreuze/swastika of 2./JG3 - did they have a white trim (like a "normal" Balkenkreuz/swastika) or nothing of white colour or only a very thin white border?

Greetings from germany, Don

[Erich]

Don sorry I did not answer about the national markings :

yes they had white for the Balkenkreuz and also for the swastika, even in the black and white photos you can barely see the white around the cross and the aircraft are so distant in the photos it is hard to see around the swastika.

Erich ~

[donnerherz]

Thank you Erich,

sorry but I have to know it for 100%:

Do you mean the fuselage Balkenkreuz only or all Balkenkreuze (on upper/lower wings, too)?

Thanks a lot for your patient help, Don

[Erich]

yes to all of them Don white around the black crosses