German Guncam footage

[cheddar cheese]

Its nothing special, you see one clip you've seen em all...

[the lancaster kicks ass]

not really, they're all different in some way............

[cheddar cheese]

Its basically the same format all the way through though

[BlackWolf3945]

Here's another...

There may be some dupes in here but I dunno fersher. If you have a chance, pick up some of the DVD's from this outfit... it's worth the mula...


Fade to Black...

[Nonskimmer]

I thought the Bf-110-G2 shooting up the B-17 was something else to watch!
The poor ball turret gunner!

[Erich]

a couple of notes as I own much of the first cine films shown.

The 110G-2 that slowly creeps up on the rear of the B-17 is armed with 4 mg 17's and two lower 20mm's in the lower nose. I can tell you for a fact if it had been a latter G-2 with all 20mm's or two 30mms and two lower 20mm's the whole tail of the B-17 would have been blown off and the engine blown off.

Much of the Fw 190A-8 footage on the rear of the B-24's in silver is done by Sturm Fw's. Notice the one hit to the left wing of the Lib that catches on an immediate fire from the Minen round

E ~

Originally Posted by Erich

a couple of notes as I own much of the first cine films shown.

The 110G-2 that slowly creeps up on the rear of the B-17 is armed with 4 mg 17's and two lower 20mm's in the lower nose. I can tell you for a fact if it had been a latter G-2 with all 20mm's or two 30mms and two lower 20mm's the whole tail of the B-17 would have been blown off and the engine blown off.

Much of the Fw 190A-8 footage on the rear of the B-24's in silver is done by Sturm Fw's. Notice the one hit to the left wing of the Lib that catches on an immediate fire from the Minen round

E ~

I would suspect that was one of the hydrostatic fused incendiary rounds. Of course there is no way to know.

=S=

Lunatic

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Originally Posted by Erich

a couple of notes as I own much of the first cine films shown.

The 110G-2 that slowly creeps up on the rear of the B-17 is armed with 4 mg 17's and two lower 20mm's in the lower nose. I can tell you for a fact if it had been a latter G-2 with all 20mm's or two 30mms and two lower 20mm's the whole tail of the B-17 would have been blown off and the engine blown off.

Much of the Fw 190A-8 footage on the rear of the B-24's in silver is done by Sturm Fw's. Notice the one hit to the left wing of the Lib that catches on an immediate fire from the Minen round

E ~

thanks for the info, could you please explain what the Minen round was please??

[Erich]

hmmmmmmm thought I explained this in heavy detail earlier. 2cm and 3cm HEI had the effect when hitting the aluminum skin of an a/c , would cause an immediate fire, so fuel tanks were likely susceptible but any place along the fuselage and in the interior would cause such havoc that the bomber would go down. engines on one side of the wing were the likely target after the rear gunner was put out of commision. If the Fw 190 had 13mm's they were used against the tail postion and then closing in would use the 2cm and finally the 3cm.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

thanks

[Erich]

note the last cine film and the last acct :

A Bf 110G-2 armed with the heavy 37mm cannon. you can see the single tracers going out to that B-24 in the distance. Note if these had been 2cm or 3cm weapons how much closer the Bf 110G-2 would have to be to the bomber. And although we are only seeing one gun cam film there are other Bf 110G-2's attacking with the Br 21 rockets. Note the large black puffs towards the B-24's

[the lancaster kicks ass]

thanks for the info again there, much of the footage in the second one is in the first.................

Originally Posted by Erich

hmmmmmmm thought I explained this in heavy detail earlier. 2cm and 3cm HEI had the effect when hitting the aluminum skin of an a/c , would cause an immediate fire, so fuel tanks were likely susceptible but any place along the fuselage and in the interior would cause such havoc that the bomber would go down. engines on one side of the wing were the likely target after the rear gunner was put out of commision. If the Fw 190 had 13mm's they were used against the tail postion and then closing in would use the 2cm and finally the 3cm.

Hmmm.....

The Minengeschoss rounds were constructed using a stamped casing, rather than boring out a ball round as was done for normal HE and HEI ammo. This meant there was more room for high explosives and incendiary payload. The Mine and API MG151/20 rounds are shown and described below:

"Minensprenggranate mit Zerleger" (HEI-SD) mine shell, m=92,0g, l=82,9mm, 18g high explosive, Vo=785m/s, ol=146,1mm, 14,8g Nz.R.P. (1,3x1,45/0,2) propellant, electrical primer "J", headstamp: exw | 8 | 45 , yellow projectile with green band below fuze, black markings: M El exw 91 45 Mv exw 263/44 ,

"Panzerbrandgranate Phosphor ohne Zerleger" (API) Phosphorous shell, m=115g, l=80,0mm, 3,6g White Phosphorous in sealed Aluminum container, Vo=720m/s, ol=145,5mm, 14,8g Nz.R.P. (1,3x1,45/0,2) propellant, percussion primer, headstamp: wg | 593 | 44 , black bullet with blue band above bourolet, white
markings: Ph edq 335/44, stamped in markings: eel 147/44
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Ba.../Cutaways.html

This compares, for example, with the Hispano 20mm HEI round which weighed about 129.6 grams and carried an 11.3 gram explosive payload. The 30mm Minengeschoss rounds carried 75-80 grams (depending on version) of explosive charge.

Other than having a big bang, there was nothing special about these rounds. A variety of fuse delays were tried and a big problem for these rounds was surface detonation, which made a big hole but often did mostly superficial damage (we've all seen photos of chewed up skins on planes that got home). To be really effective the round had to pass into the interior of the wing or fuselage where it could generate a "confined space" effect (which magnifies an explosion), but because the casing were so thin delaying the detonation risked the round comming apart and not detonating successfully. About 25% of these rounds were pure duds and did not detonate on striking a target. The fuse of the mine type rounds also required a flat head and this effected their aerodyamics (they had poor ballistic shape and thus high coef.'s of drag for their sectional density).

The 20mm was found insuffient against American heavy bombers like the B-17, requiring 20 or more hits between the wing root and inboard engine to reliably kill the bomber or force it out of formation. This lead to the 30mm which was much more effective, requiring only 2-5 hits between the wing root and inboard engine to accomplish the same result. Range was very limited, the 20mm having a maxium effective range of perhaps 300 meters, and the 30 mm MK108 more like 100 meters, for rear attacks. The 30mm MK103 would have had good range, but I'm not sure how much Minengeschoss type ammo was fired from this gun (which was not used that much anyway).

Because the Minengeschoss were not proving as successful as desired (i.e. one hit kills), the Germans also developed a hydrostatically fused incendiary round which would only detonate if emmersed in liquid. These were very successful at fully igniting fuel tanks but of course they would not do much elsewhere. The fuel tanks were considered the easiest critical area to hit.

=S=

Lunatic

[Erich]

I already posted all this info previously................

Originally Posted by Erich

I already posted all this info previously................

Well, in your post it seemed to me you were making these weapons out to be much more effective than they were. Remember that with the MG151/20 the Luftwaffe' determined it took over 20 hits to cripple or kill a B-17, and that it took over 1000 rounds fired to achieve those 20 hits. Hitting power was a strong point, range and accuracy were weak points, of these weapons.

=S=

Lunatic