German Guncam footage

[Erich]

huh ? where do you get this info ? the Minen rounds were superior in devastating power to any comporable Allied/Soviet ammo. It sure didn't take 20 rounds of 2cm HEI to knock down a heavy bomber I can tell you that.

[plan_D]

Yes, Erich has posted pictues in the past of heavy bombers being brought down with as little as 3 hits in the right place. The German pilots certainly knew how to put them in the right place too...

...and when you hear about that Bf-110 shooting down 9 (Right?) Lancasters in one night on one load of ammo, that's something to say about German ammo.

Originally Posted by Erich

huh ? where do you get this info ? the Minen rounds were superior in devastating power to any comporable Allied/Soviet ammo. It sure didn't take 20 rounds of 2cm HEI to knock down a heavy bomber I can tell you that.

First off, the round is what it is. The MG151/20 round carried about 18 grams of HE/I payload in a 96 gram projectile with medium velocity (785 m/s at the muzzel) and poor ballistic performance (SD=0.292 with poor shape). The Hispano carried 11.3 grams of HE/I in a 129.6 gram projectile at high velocity (845 m/s @ 90 feet) with good ballistic performance (SD=0.412 with fair shape). The MG151/20 relied on HE payload to do the damage, where the Hispano relied on both HE payload and impact to do the damage.

In terms of actual damage, the two were quite comparable, the German round delivering more HE to the target but little impact damage, the Hispano a little less HE to the target but much more impact damage. Also, the Hispano round carried substantial mass to the target, assureing sharpnel damage, where the MG151/20 round carried almost no mass to the target (because its walls were so thin) so it had to recruit mass if it was to have shrapnel effect. Also, 25% of these types of rounds were duds, which means that 25% of the MG151/20 mine rounds did very little damage, where the Hispano round, even if a dud, would still do subantial damage. Overall, hitting power wise on a round per round basis, the Hispano was probably just as effective as the Mg151/20. The Hispano V, not the MG151/20, stands out as the best 20mm of WWII (with the Soviet B-20 as an arguable contender as it weighted half what the Hispano or MG151/20 weighed).

By the summer of 1943, the Germans had deployed the Focke Wulf FW 190A4, a dedicated bomber killer armed with two 7.9mm machine guns and four 20mm cannons. With all guns functioning, a three-second burst fired about 130 rounds of ammunition. The Luftwaffe estimated that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a B-17. Analysis of gun camera film revealed that the average German pilot scored hits with only 2 percent of the rounds fired, thus on average, 1000 rounds were fired to score the 20 hits required.
...
Later in the war, the Germans introduced the Mk 108 30mm heavy cannon capable of firing 600 11-ounce high explosive rounds per minute. Three hits with this weapon were usually sufficient to bring down a Flying Fortress. On the other hand it was a low velocity weapon and its effective range was shorter than the 20-mm cannon forcing German pilots to fly even closer to get hits.
http://freepages.military.rootsweb.c...erspective.htm

The MK 108 was developed during the early 1940s by RHEINMETALL-BORSIG. It was the standard 30 mm cannon in fighters from about 1942 until 1945. It was a weapon of brilliant design. The Mk 108 was more a product of a nation at war than the earlier Mk103. ( a much larger and heavier weapon that had been fitted experimentally under the wings of a Fw 190 ) The Mk 103 was milled, and finished with higher-quality steels, whereas the Mk 108 was made from lower quality easily assembled metal stampings with machined steel barrels. It featured electrical ignition and was operated electrically / pneumatically. The brochure claimed a rate of fire of 660 rounds per minute. Weight of projectile was 330 g, total weight 480 g. The weight of the gun was 58 kg and it's length 1057 mm. The most effective ammunition was the Minengranate (mine shell), a heavy shell filled with high explosive. The Minengranaten were quite incredible HE shells, combining a minimum thickness of shell casing with maximum explosive content. Their incendiary effects could easily start a fire on contact with the aluminium of a four-engined bomber. Just 3 to 4 shells placed at the in-board engine and wing root would be enough to destroy a Viermot. The Sturmbock 190 had 55 rounds of this lethal ammunition per 30 mm Mk 108. The low velocity and slower rate of fire gave it it's characteristic sound. It became the "pneumatic hammer"

The MK 108 had a number of characteristics that limited its use to anti-bomber combat. Projectile velocity was low at 520m/sec which resulted in short range and poor accuracy . Ammunition could not be wasted in wild shooting from long range. Ammunition belt malfunction under high G-forces was a problem. The wing mounted cannon were heavy and there was little room in the wing for ammunition ( only 55 rounds/gun sufficient for barely 5 seconds firing ). More importantly for the Sturmgruppe pilots the weight of the cannon in the wings adversely affected the manoeuvrability of the Focke Wulf 190, making the aircraft quite unsuitable for fighter v fighter combat. But it was this weapon/ammunition combination that made possible the tactics of the Sturmgruppen. The German pilots might have acknowledged the superiority of the American fighters by mid 1944 but they believed rightly that they had the best firepower for the task. Lt Richard Franz of Sturmstaffel 1 remembers using the Mk 108 in action against the B-17s ( quoted in Classic's Sturmstaffel 1 )

" When we made our final attack we approached from slightly above , then dived and opened fire with the 13mm and 20mm guns to knock out the rear gunner. Then at about 150m we tried to engage with the Mk 108 which really was a terrible weapon. It was able to cut the wing off a B-17. It was easier to kill a B-24 which was weaker in respect of fuselage strength and armament. Generally speaking we had the better armament and ammunition whereas the other side had the better aircraft.."
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...age/pauke.html

I've studied these weapons in great detail. It was the Luftwaffe' that claimed an average of 20 x 20mm hits to kill a B-17, or 2-4 x 30mm hits (if placed properly). And it was the Luftwaffe' that claimed it took 1000 20mm rounds expended to land those 20 hits to kill a B-17.

=S=

Lunatic

[Erich]

sorry man but I have interviewed tons of GErman vets both day and night, especially the ones flying heavy STrumFw's equipped with the so called rounds that did not do much damage. I will agree that the earlier 2cm HE did not have the ballistics necessary to bring down a heavy until the Minengeschoss was in effect to the truppen. As several Luftwaffe pilots have said and even in publication that they felt they did not have the superiro a/c but did have the superiro ammo. The guncam cine films prove it way too often..........

but I appreciate your willingness to come up with textural stats, which in the field mean nothing as far as I am concerned. Freind and ace Peter spoden spoke of one pilot in his NJG 6 gruppe that shot down 1 Lanc with 3 rounds of 2cm in the Schragwaffen installation. Pretty bloody lucky I will admit but still it shows what was able......and this was not even Minen ammo

[Gnomey]

Some nice footage there, interesting to watch.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

welcome to the site and nice siggy gno..................

Originally Posted by Erich

sorry man but I have interviewed tons of GErman vets both day and night, especially the ones flying heavy STrumFw's equipped with the so called rounds that did not do much damage. I will agree that the earlier 2cm HE did not have the ballistics necessary to bring down a heavy until the Minengeschoss was in effect to the truppen. As several Luftwaffe pilots have said and even in publication that they felt they did not have the superiro a/c but did have the superiro ammo. The guncam cine films prove it way too often..........

but I appreciate your willingness to come up with textural stats, which in the field mean nothing as far as I am concerned. Freind and ace Peter spoden spoke of one pilot in his NJG 6 gruppe that shot down 1 Lanc with 3 rounds of 2cm in the Schragwaffen installation. Pretty bloody lucky I will admit but still it shows what was able......and this was not even Minen ammo

A single round of any caliber could take down any WWII plane if it hit in just the right place. But when it comes to typical or expected results, these cases have to be excluded as they are extremely rare and based more on luck than anything else. When it came to what the weapon could be expected to do, the figures I've given are reasonable.

Also, a Lancaster was a lot easier to take down than a B-17. Where the Lanc excelled in terms of payload, speed, and manuverability over the B-17, the B-17 excelled in toughness and defensive armament. If you ever get a chance to go inside a B-17 and a Lancaster, you can see the difference right off - the B-17 has much tighter ribbing, and it's thicker too. The B-17 had a lot more armor, more damage resistant engines with some fire extinguishing capability (later models), no liquid cooling system, and much superior self-sealing fuel tanks.

=S=

Lunatic

[plan_D]

Erich, what were the NJG-6 flying?

RG, I bet you cannot bring down a B-17 with a single shot from a 5.56mm round...

You could still bring down a B-17 with 3-6 rounds if you put them in the right place.

[GermansRGeniuses]

If that particular place was unpainted (less friction and mass, I guess the round would fly better; this is a guess, not a fact), unarmored, and of extremely thin aluminum covering unsealing fuel tanks...

[plan_D]

You talking about the 5.56 comment, or the 3-6 20mm rounds comment?

[GermansRGeniuses]

Ah, I thought you meant 3-6 5.56mm, I know 20mm was extremely deadly, in German form.

[plan_D]

Well I did seperate them with spaces...and boy would B-17s be mocked if 3-6 5.56mm rounds could bring them down.

[GermansRGeniuses]

I know, but you didn't indicate the new subject well...

[plan_D]

True, I didn't. I failed horribly...and going with my signature, this calls for some beer drinking.

[GermansRGeniuses]

Send some my way!