German Guncam footage

[lesofprimus]

Im sure some of the things erich knows would astound all of us here......

[Erich]

Udet the information comes from two SturmFw aces.

I am not sure positively how the engagement ended except it was noted that the B-17 went down. You note that the Fw or at least the gun cam is showing the attacking fighter going over the wing so to speak and banking away and this is how the cine film ends.

if you note the very first film on this thread, go through it again and you find a formation (pulk) of all silver B-24's being attacked from the rear. there are 2 sequences of the same bomber group being attacked on the same date. The footage supposedly from what I have as to US veteran resources suggested this was on the terrible 27 September 1944 raid over Kassel. ( at one time in the hands of the IWM in London ); A real botched job of the US 445th bg who were assaulted by all three SturmFw gruppen with 30 B-24's going down. Of special interest is one B-24 being attacked and an HEI Minen round goes into the left outer wing causing an immediate fire.............this crew didn't have a chance

I have at least 6 other cine films by SturmFw's on different dates dealing out their lethal and ugly lead on B-24's. Will try to get snaps of some of these and post them. On two of the films the Fw's get within 100yards and literally tear the B-24 apart, and in fact within that 100 yards all you see towards the end of the film is debris flying everywhere, the tail units decomposing and the inner engine on one of the B-24 falls off, torn from the wing......I am almost reluctant to even make snaps of these as it is really gruesome

E ~

[Udet]

Erich:

Thank you very much for your gentle explanation.

And I fully agree with you on your comment regarding how shocking can many of such images can be.

My guncamera footage collection includes no less than 50 films of P-51s getting shot down by German fighters.

I submitted one of the CD´s to a group of alleged experts on WWII airwarfare issues.

They concluded 4 of the guncamera films came from Me262s pulverizing the Mustangs. I use the word "pulverizing" in the most literal sense there is.

How did they conclude the film came from the Luftwaffe jet?
They calculated the approximate distance of the US fighter at first appearance on the camera sight, and concluded that the time it took the interceptor to effectively intercept, covering such distance, getting as close as 50 meters to the P-51 could have never been achieved by any other piston engined of the war, friend or foe alike.

The action appears to have been at high altitude.
When the distance reached some 50 meters, the P-51 pilot attempted evasive action but curiously the turning radius of the German plane was superior and remained inside the US pilot.

The German pilot opened fire virtually overhead the cockpit and the outcome is totally disturbing; so disturbing I have seen such image only a very few times and I am not interested at all in seeing them again. Furthermore, to my personal disgrace I am capable of replaying the entire film in my mind from beginning to end.

The Mustang gets cleanly torn apart; the nose section flys away, and you can get about one second glimpse of the body of the US pilot with all limbs horribly twisted among big parts of his destroyed plane. Finally you can get another second glimpse -virtually leaving the sight of the camera- of a flashing or smoke.

P.S. Erich, sorry -I digress-, in the part of the film I posted here, is there an initial pin point shot of the MG131s before firing the cannons?

[lesofprimus]

Gentlemen,
I know I speak for the whole board here if I could relay our graciousness and eternal thanks if you could post as many of those video/clips here in this thread.....

ANY AND ALL FOOTAGE WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED........

The ones u are desribing Erich, gruesome in nature, are a true testament to the bomber crews of this horrible war....

I can say with honest conviction that by posting more video clips, u are furthering the interest in WW II aviation by leaps and bounds.....

Gun Camera footage is as real as it gets..... Honest and bloody, horrible and honorable..... The best teaching tool.....

PLEASE POST ANY AND ALL FOOTAGE WHENEVER YOU CAN...

Thanks guys.....

[Nonskimmer]

I second that! It's impressive stuff, and it's historical.
That's what it's all about, isn't it?

[Erich]

gents thanks for the comments............

the material may take a little time as the chap that does my digital work, works for Allied intel and he is gone on assignment, but when he is back home he really enjoys my little "treats" that I bring him to size down. Will check further in my saved files as I may have something although a bit on the small size I think.............it will be here though.

Udet not sure if any of the rounds on the B-17 are from the 13mm cowling guns. The inboard 2cm's were also used to pinpoint the rounds and having a much longer range than the 3cm short range cannons. I will have to check my records but the SturmFw he flew may have been armed with 4 2cm's and not any 3cm guns. The mg 131's were usually removed but the cowlings were not faired over yet. For bomber killing the MG 131 was about useless and to save weight they were pulled from the a/c so the SturmFw could take on that extra 500 pounds of armor plating

good night gents.............. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Erich ~

[lesofprimus]

Thanks for everything Erich.. WE can wait for ur pal.. No problem..... Long clips, short clips... We would like to view them all....

[Erich]

here is the beginning or should say one of the first shots by Willi on the B-17 in the last film. sorry for the small size of the image

[Udet]

Erich do you have your guncamera footage on CD? or what of the format?

Do not be troubled, for I will not ask you to send me anything in your possession.

I ask you because I would like to attach some gucamera films from my collection here; even though I am not appealed by the idea since there are quite a few ones in this forum with whom I would not like to share what I have.

Still, it would be enlightening to some guys to see footage that strangely you never see in the documentals of the USAAF in the ETO, where they will only show US fighters shooting down German fighters, forging in the collective mind of the people "only German fighters got destroyed in combat flight".

Perhaps the USAAF historians do not want their country fellows to see their Mustangs also got blown out of the skies.

If I have it all on CD, how do I make MPEG files? Do you happen to know?


Finally Erich, I have seen the photo you just posted, are you saying it is the same doomed bomber in the film I attached here?

[Erich]

no the cine films are on old vhs and directly from Germany some years back. not sure how to make any wmv file format. The pic I put up is from a very popular set of German reel footage and is suppose to be the start of Willi's attack. He place three or so rounds on the right side and tail before the imagery changes to the left side attack where he slows his SturmFw down in speed to inflict the terrible damage.

I can get snaps of the fottage in a stilled format only. one by one which is tedious

Originally Posted by Erich

Udet not sure if any of the rounds on the B-17 are from the 13mm cowling guns. The inboard 2cm's were also used to pinpoint the rounds and having a much longer range than the 3cm short range cannons. I will have to check my records but the SturmFw he flew may have been armed with 4 2cm's and not any 3cm guns. The mg 131's were usually removed but the cowlings were not faired over yet. For bomber killing the MG 131 was about useless and to save weight they were pulled from the a/c so the SturmFw could take on that extra 500 pounds of armor plating
Erich ~

Erich,

If you study the MG131 vs the MG151/20, one thing that stands out is these two guns had nearly identical ballistics. This means that, unlike the MG17, MG131's in the cowl were useful to sight the 20mm.

I suspect that, in general, planes armed with 30mm MK108's deleted the MG131's, both for weight reasons and because the focus was on the 30mm, and having 3 different gun types in the plane just complicated everything. However, in the 20mm armed planes, I suspect the MG131's were usually retained, because of the ballistics, the rather poor Rof of the wing root 20mm (250rpg @ 600rpm), and the rather small ammo load of the outboard 20mm (140rpg @ 730rpm). The 1700 rpm RoF of the MG131's (450rpg @ 850rpm) would have substantially increased the volume of fire (i.e. rounds in the air).

Not saying this is fact, just what I think makes sense.

=S=

Lunatic

[Erich]

at first the mg 131's were retained just as you said, to take aim or pinpoint the canon rounds. the idea of course was to take out the threat of the tail gunner, but it was found that maximum destruction with fewer rounds was needed and why have the extra weight of the cowling guns when 2cm could be used to make more of an impact. It has been found that certain SturmFw pilots did keep the mg 131's all through the war on their craft. And Also some pilots in Sturmgruppen flew a regular A-8 variant so they could try and kepp pace with US P-51's during dog-fights.

E

[lesofprimus]

I have found that it was a toss up to pilots desires and combat circumstances.... In just about all the material Ive viewed the pilot dictated what his armament would be..

The 30mm was usually used without the -131's... The weight really made a difference as u suggested... And the smaller rounds were found to be unecessary for that mission profile....

[Erich]

I'm still at home due to the cold temps but am going to find that cine films and take a quic k peek.

yes up to the pilot and ground crew whether to have the mg's removed or not. The problem and I mentioned this earlier, when the mg's were removed there were still the opening in the fairings over the engine colwling, and although quite small did throw off the flying characteristics of the heavy Fw 190 through wind drag and the noise into the cockpit of a whistle. Kommodore of JG 300 in the summer/fall of 1944 was Major Walter Dahl RK winner. He flew several different types of A-8's/SturmFw's and had either fairings faired over with removeal of the mg's or had the full on range of all three types of weapons. Again the mg 131's were for target indication.

will say that JG 300 had a tendancy to overclaim and Dahl was one of the instigators with his own kills/claims, as on Sturm Fw missions the man would file a kill for a mission he never flew on. also note, right now that his flugbuch is on e-bay and going for 300.00 euro's. It should fetch clsoe to 770.00 plus before bidding is closed I feel. A very strange man

[Udet]

The part of the film I attached to my post was sent to me via e-mail (a while ago), I actually had forgotten it was on my PC. It was not part of my collection.

The name of the file is "utok_bf109g6".

"Utok" is czec for "attack", and of course the final part in the filename, the fighter allegedly responsible for gutting the doomed B-17.

I will never claim any kind of knowledge regarding the analysis of firearms; after seeing the film several times it appeared like if indeed we were seeing just one "line" of shells being fired, like from one sole cannon: A BRUTALLY AND DEVASTATING CANNON for sure.

So after seeing the Bf109G-6, as name of the file, it seemed reasonable to think the fire came from the engine mounted 2cm or 3cm cannon of a Bf109.

However, on the field of gunnery and firearms i will certainly not stand to the many of you which apparently know a good deal on such toys.