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#1 American Killer, ETO???

Aviation Discuss #1 American Killer, ETO??? in the World War II - Aviation forums; In all my researching and reading, I have never been able to find enough info to settle this debate for ...

  1. #1
    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    #1 American Killer, ETO???

    In all my researching and reading, I have never been able to find enough info to settle this debate for myself...



    I would assume that this is a very difficult statistic to track...

    I would also assume that the All-Time American Killer was Japanese, for obvious reasons, but I may be wrong in this assumption...

    Anyone got some stats sittin around that could shed some light on this???

  2. #2
    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    As an add on, Tetsuzo Iwamoto scored an impressive 202 aerial kills, and although this # seems to vary from different sources, the 202 seems to be the most common # posted...

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    If you mean the top American Ace in the ETO, it would be Gabby Gabreski with 28 air-to-air kills. But I'm not really sure what you are asking for. Could you explain it better?


    By the way, Hiroyoshi Nishizawa is sometime acreditted with 202 victories though a total of 87 is more commonly accepted. Estimates for Iwamoto's final tally range from 250 to 66 with 80 seeming to be the most likely number.

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    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    Naw man i know Gabby... What im lookin 4 is the German who killed the most Americans...

    Ive seen the 87 before... But in books and online and articles and whatnot, i've seen the 202 more than any other #...

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    Tracking that down would be pretty hard to do. The Germans on the Western front had relatively modest scores as compared to those on the Eastern front. I doubt anyone in the ETO shot down more Americans than Nishizawa or Iwamoto.

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    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    Yea LG... I have been looking for some solid stats on this for quite some time, and have virtually come up empty... ETO that is...

    Who was the leading German Ace in the ETO??? I'd have to look it up, but maybe one of u have it burned into ur memory chips...

    Maybe Erich has some insider info on the leading American Killer...

  7. #7
    Senior Member the lancaster kicks ass's Avatar
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    he hasn't been around much lately.................

    "Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy."

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    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    I found a website that has a great stat listing that has been compiled from offical German films from the Eastern front, 1941-1944... Lists pilots name, date, location, aircraft downed and so forth... Zip file... Pretty interesting reading...

    If i can locate one of these for the Western front, we might have something here...

    If anyone is interested in this zip file, just say so and ill email u it...

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    the old Sage Erich's Avatar
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    will have to dig deep as this is an interesting question..... as it could be the combination of bombers/fighters or one or the other ? let me know and we can go from there. Walter Dahl has in some references been known to be the top Mustang killer but although his claims are impressive further research has found that some of claims are in fact bogus and may have been credited to his wingman or other pilots under his leadership.............kinda crappy but it was not uncommon to have a leading personality/knights cross winner be built up for propaganda reasons. this my feelings for Herr Rudel and his tank busting feats. I surely do not beleive at all the 519 claimed in his favour.

    Erich ~

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    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    Yea Erich... These are some specific statistics that may not even exist for all i know...

    I read about Dahl before and agree with what ur saying about puffing up his totals...
    But Rudel??? I fully believe in as many sorties as the man had, that those #'s are definatly acievable... He fired over 5,000 37mm rounds, and when he was to be presented with another award, he would make it conditional that he should be allowed to continue flying sorties...

    Against even Hitlers requests...

    When he recieved his final Award, Hitler reluctantly agreed, but latter on that agreement was revolked, and Rudel was grounded... He went back to the front in direct disobiedience of the Greman Higher Authority...

    The man wanted to kill as many Russians as possible before the war ended...

    Tank by tank...

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    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    I would assume one of these men can claim the title in the ETO...

    The PTO is alittle more difficult....

    Only 8 men shot down over 100 aircraft in the WTO...

    List
    Rank / First Name / Last Name / West / East / Total

    1
    Hptm. Hans-Joachim "Jochen" Marseille 158 0 158

    2
    Obstlt. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär 125 96 221
    3
    Obstlt. Kurt Bühligen 112 0 112

    4
    GenLt. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland 104 0 104

    5
    Maj. Joachim Müncheberg 102 33 135

    6
    Maj. Werner Schroer 102 12 114

    7
    Obstlt. Egon Mayer 102 0 102

    8
    Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller 101 0 101
    9
    Obst. Gustav Rödel 96 (97) 2 (1) 98

    10
    Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller 93 9 102

    11
    Maj. Siegfried "Wurm" Schnell 90 3 93

    12
    Maj. Erich Rudorffer 86 138 224

    13
    Obst. Walter Oesau 73 44 117

    14
    Hptm. Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 71 103 174

    15
    Hptm. Siegfried Lemke 70 0 70

    16
    Oblt. Adolf "Addi" Glunz 69 3 72

    17
    Maj. Werner "Vati" Mölders 68 33 101

    18
    Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 68 10 78

    19
    Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn 66 42 108

    20
    Maj. Anton "Toni" Hackl 61 131 192

    21
    Maj. Gerhard Homuth 61 2 63

    22
    Oblt. Herbert Rollwage 60+ 11 85~

    23
    Maj. Gerhard Michalski 59 14 73

    24
    Lt. Hans-Arnold "Fiffi" Stahlschmidt 59 0 59

    25
    Maj. Klaus Mietusch 57 15 72

    26
    Obst. Herbert Ihlefeld 56 67 123

    27
    Oblt. Günther Seeger 56 0 56

    28
    Maj. Helmut Wick 56 0 56

    29
    Oblt. Karl-Heinz Bendert 55 0 55

    30
    Maj. Wilhelm-Ferdinand "Wutz" Galland 54 (55) 0 54 (55)

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    Some of these men, Like Galland, scored most of their kills before America even entered the war. I'm not sure who all that rules out, but it probably rulls out several.

  13. #13
    Senior Member GermansRGeniuses's Avatar
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    Surely this is supposed to be the WTO, right?

  14. #14
    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    ETO European Theatre operations...

    But yes.... For the Western European Theatre...

  15. #15
    Senior Member lesofprimus's Avatar
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    Here is a list of American kills for the WTO...

    # / Name / US Kills / Total Kills / Bombers / Fighters

    1. Georg-Peter Eder / 55 / 78 / 36 / 9xP47, 7xP51, 3xP38
    2. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär / 52 / 221/ 21 / 11xP51, 10xP47, 4xP38, 3xB25, 1xA20
    3. Anton "Toni" Hackl / 47 / 192 / 34 / 6xP47, 3xP38, 2xP51, 3 "??"
    4. Kurt Bühligen / 46 / 112 / 24 / 13xP38, 9xP47
    5. Walther Dahl / 41 / 128 / 30 / 6xP51, 3xP38, 2xP47
    6. Konrad "Pitt" Bauer / 40 / 68 / 32 / 7xP51, 1xP38
    7. Egon Mayer / 40 / 102 / 26 / 8xP47
    8. Heinrich Bartels / 39 / 99 / 2 / 14xP38, 11xP51, 9xP47, 2xB25
    9. Siegfried Lemke/ 39 / 70 / 21 / 8xP47, 6xP51, 2xP38, 2xB26, 1xB25, 1xP39
    10. Werner Schroer / 36 / 114 / 26 / 8xP38, 1xP51, 1xP39


    Seems like Eder is the man....

    Looks to me like Bartels was one hell of a freakin great pilot.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails #1 American Killer, ETO???-kills_heinrich_bartels_70_192.jpg  

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