1942: the best fighter

[kielczyslaw]

And you think that 109 could fly at 1.3 ATA all the time?

Every fghter comparison tests should be made with max power settings. Just because Spit could use it's max boost for only 5' doesn't mean that RAF pilots were fightin LW on cruise power.

Dogfights during WW2 didn't looked like in IL2 Sturmovik or something. Usually they lasted for less than 5' if not less than 2'.
It's obvious that when your life's at risk, you'll do everything to survive. Not using combat power during a dogfight almost always was a suicide. So I don't understand why are you comparing Bf 109 on max power settings with Spit IX on climb power. It's a little bit not fair, don't you think?

"i used climb data to climb power and not for combat power because this is available only for 5' and so the Spit can not climb a this power to 20000" or 40000"."



Why would it even try? Again, I do not see the point of your notice. Do you know what combat power is for? I can assure you that 109 couldn't climb to that level at 1.3 ATA applied continuously either

"the plane nr 14026 was a test plane with some instrumentations and so more drag"

Me 109 G-1 Flight Test Read, please, this test report. You can find there that these instruments were downgrading speed by 7 mph.

[Vincenzo]

maybe you need read before to write, i writed that that setting, combat&climb, was for a 30'.
climb power in raf is not cruiser power
i never played to il2 and my last time to a game FS is many years ago in SWOTL, 1st edition, and i never remember what i did
i've not writed they can not use max boost in combat i tell i use the climb power for time to 20' and 40'k climb, 109 was a 30' set climb&combat (the max power set was not available at time) and they are enough time for climb to 6 and 12 km and i never see data on climb on lower power set for 109.

combat power is for combat not for climb to altitude

ty for the link i've seen the deutsch version and is not so easy to read like that in english,
ok so we known we need add 10 km/h for the instrumentations and almost an other 12 km/h for the tailwheel so the speed was a bit less of 650 km/h (ot a bit over 650 if had the tailwheel with a 17 km/h penalty) nothing strange within 3% of acceptance

[kielczyslaw]

"i've not writed they can not use max boost in combat i tell i use the climb power for time to 20' and 40'k climb, 109 was a 30' set climb&combat (the max power set was not available at time) and they are enough time for climb to 6 and 12 km and i never see data on climb on lower power set for 109."

This and...

"combat power is for combat not for climb to altitude"

this stay in a bit of a conflict manner. If you know that why are you trying to tell me that Germans were climbing to operational height at full throttle and Spitfire pilots couldn't do that because of 5' of max power? Climb after take-off and combat climb are two different things. So when we are comparing combat performance you should use max power performance charts. I mean max power climb for Spitfire, not climb setting climb.

When you climb to operational height, e.g. 20k feet, you won't use emergency power but climb power to avoid overheating the engine. But when in combat you have to gain altitude very quickly you will use boost to give you additional power.

[Tante Ju]

this stay in a bit of a conflict manner. If you know that why are you trying to tell me that Germans were climbing to operational height at full throttle and Spitfire pilots couldn't do that because of 5' of max power? Climb after take-off and combat climb are two different things. So when we are comparing combat performance you should use max power performance charts. I mean max power climb for Spitfire, not climb setting climb.

When you climb to operational height, e.g. 20k feet, you won't use emergency power but climb power to avoid overheating the engine. But when in combat you have to gain altitude very quickly you will use boost to give you additional power.

For the Me 109G, inital "full throttle" and "climb" power were the same, the real full throttle - "emergency" in German terms - was not allowed initial.

The "climb and combat" power could be used for 30 minutes on DB 605A, and was equivalent of the British "Normal". "Start and Emergency", the actual German 5 min power, equivalent of British "Combat", also for 5 minutes, was initial disallowed on DB 605A. So terms are a bit confusing when translated to English, because combat power means different in the two countries - its more like US "Military power" in Germany, and US WEP in Britain.

In this case I think Vincenzos comparison is more or less valid, because if you wish to compare an intercept/time to altitude profile, it is done in both case (Kampf/Normal) at the rating official sanctioned for general climbing. For combat, of course Spitfire could use higher settings (and so could 109G from 1943, when "Notleistung" was clear for use)

I think Me 109G performance is pretty clear for 1942, the specification is on Kurfurst site. Specs were 637 km/h at 0m, 660 km/h a 7000m. Aircraftperformance site doesnt list the "good tests", only bad ones for German machines, not even Official specs, maybe people want to show how bad the Me 109 was compared to Spitfire this way, very possible. But everyone is biased to some extent.

[Vincenzo]

my point on choice climbing power is cleared to Tante Ju

[Kryten]

are you guys confusing combat power with wep on the spit?
wep was limited to 5 mins and was only used in emergencies, to use it you had to break the lockout and then inform your ground crew chief on return, cant see the spits climb rate being calculated on wep?

[Vincenzo]

i've not confusing, there was not wep on thest of BS274 (called BF274), there were combat power, 5' set +15 lbs, and climb power, 60' set +12 lbs
you can read the test on spitfireperformance.com

[Juha]

For the Me 109G, inital "full throttle" and "climb" power were the same, the real full throttle - "emergency" in German terms - was not allowed initial.

The "climb and combat" power could be used for 30 minutes on DB 605A, and was equivalent of the British "Normal". "Start and Emergency", the actual German 5 min power, equivalent of British "Combat", also for 5 minutes, was initial disallowed on DB 605A. So terms are a bit confusing when translated to English, because combat power means different in the two countries - its more like US "Military power" in Germany, and US WEP in Britain.

In this case I think Vincenzos comparison is more or less valid, because if you wish to compare an intercept/time to altitude profile, it is done in both case (Kampf/Normal) at the rating official sanctioned for general climbing. For combat, of course Spitfire could use higher settings (and so could 109G from 1943, when "Notleistung" was clear for use)

I think Me 109G performance is pretty clear for 1942, the specification is on Kurfurst site. Specs were 637 km/h at 0m, 660 km/h a 7000m. Aircraftperformance site doesnt list the "good tests", only bad ones for German machines, not even Official specs, maybe people want to show how bad the Me 109 was compared to Spitfire this way, very possible. But everyone is biased to some extent.

Hello Tante Ju
I agree most, but firstly, usually I have seen the time limit for the "Start and Emergency" power for DB 605A/B as only 1 minute see for ex Mankau's and Petrick's Messerschmitt Bf 110/Me 210/ Me 410 and in a few other sources as 3 minutes. Different countries had different regulations which make the comparing a bit tricky.

Secondly, IMHO the better figure for max speed at the FTH for early Gs is the average reached in Erla tests, that of accepted a/c was 652km/h. IMHO we can leave out those failed ones. And you made a typo on the SL speed, it was 537km/h. But your point is valid, what is relevant is what the terms meant not the terms themselves, different countries had different terminologies.

JUha

[Siegfried]

Emergency Power in German is "Noteleistung" (emergency performance).
Sonder Noteleistung (special emergency power) would usually refer to ME 50 injection or some other special method such as rich mixture injection.
There was even erhoete sonder noteleistung (increased emergency power) which would involved say rich mixture injection plus MW50 on say a
Fw 190-D9.

I believe emergency power was effectively blocked on the Me 109G till 1943 due to the restriction to 1.3 ata so the aircraft could opperated at full power indefinetly temperature requipments aside.

[Juha]

Hello Siegfried
the time limit for German Climb and Combat Power was 30 minutes, which was completely adequate.

Juha

[Hop]

I believe emergency power was effectively blocked on the Me 109G till 1943 due to the restriction to 1.3 ata so the aircraft could opperated at full power indefinetly temperature requipments aside.

From the British translation of the German message banning the use of emergency power:

The take-off and emergency output with a boost pressure of 1.42 atm and 2800 revs may not at present be used. The climbing and combat output with 1.3 atm and 2600 revs may, in the case of the older engines (see work numbers below), be used only when operationally essential.

That makes sense, of course. If it was too dangerous to use 1.42 for even a few minutes, then using 1.3 ata for half an hour probably wasn't a good idea either. There was a similar practice with the 190, when emergency power was restricted the old climb and combat rating became the new emergency rating, usable for only a few minutes.

[Vincenzo]

"The pistons of older engines (before above-mentioned worksnumbers) will be replaced by reinforced pistons during the first partial overhaul.
Older engines mst be partially overhauled after 50 hours..."

[Vincenzo]

Juha have you a readable copy of graphs of 13 Erla 109 ? i can't read that on kurfurst site

[Juha]

Juha have you a readable copy of graphs of 13 Erla 109 ? i can't read that on kurfurst site

I think I got this from Kurfürst site

[Juha]

"The pistons of older engines (before above-mentioned worksnumbers) will be replaced by reinforced pistons during the first partial overhaul.
Older engines mst be partially overhauled after 50 hours..."

Contrary to German hopes that didn't solve the problems of 605A, IIRC they then tried new sparkplugs but the problems were finally solved with mods in the oil system which prevented foaming.

Juha