4 bladed 109? - Aircraft of World War II

Trebor · 01-26-2009, 04:44 PM

this is the wierdest looking BF-109 I've ever seen Tillamook Air Museum 38 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

ccheese · 01-26-2009, 04:50 PM

I think the four bladed 109's had the Rolls-Royce engine in it.

Charles

Colin1 · 01-26-2009, 04:57 PM

Unless I'm mistaken
that's a Rolls Royce Kestrel-engined HA 1112 M-1-L Buchon

As far as I'm aware, the Germans had two attempts at four-bladed props, both for high-altitude fighters. One was the Blohm und Voss Bv155 (a Bf109 modified and built by BuV) and the Bf109-H1.

At less extreme altitudes, German designers didn't seem to necessarily equate more propeller blades with more power and were happy they could get by with the conventional three-bladed configuration

Geedee · 01-26-2009, 04:57 PM

I reckon its a Buchon and not a 'pukka' 109.

License built by the Sspanish and fitted with the RR Merlin.

Colin1 · 01-26-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geedee

License built by the Spanish and fitted with the RR Merlin.

Dude
you could be right - I've got no way of knowing that's a RR Kestrel. Not from that angle, anyway

BombTaxi · 01-26-2009, 05:28 PM

That is almost certainly a Merlin-engined HA-1112M1L Buchon. There was also a K1L version using the Hispano-Suiza 12Z engine. The Buchon often stands in for 109s in film and on TV. There was also a Merlin-engined He111 built in Spain after the war, the CASA 2.111. This has also made film appearances.

And finally, Avia built 109G's more-or-less 'out-of-the-box' as the S-99, and produced an S-199 variant as well, which was used by the Israelis in 1948. These were Jumo 211 powered, I believe

Edit: Colin, the 109 prototype was powered by a RR Kestrel. About half the power of the Merlins in the Buchon/ CASA 2.11, IIRC!

Colin1 · 01-26-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BombTaxi

That is almost certainly a Merlin-engined HA-1112M1L Buchon. There was also a K1L version using the Hispano-Suiza 12Z engine

I thought various marks of the Buchon were powered by all three, the Kestrel, the Merlin and the HS 12Z; I've just got no idea how to tell while it's still got the lid on.

Mind you, I'm a bit sketchy on Buchons

Waynos · 01-26-2009, 06:33 PM

Bomb Taxi is right, it was only the 109 prototype that had Kestrel power, Buchons using the Merlin or Hispano Suiza.

BombTaxi · 01-26-2009, 06:57 PM

Hmm, a quick scoot around the web suggests that the Kestrel was used in the 109, He112 and Ju87 prototypes, but not in the Buchon. It was a design of 1927 vintage and turned out 745hp - although it topped out at about 1050hp with higher octane fuels later in it's career.

Just from the age of the design, I find it hard to believe this was in the Buchon, 20 years after the engine was first introduced - the Merlin was in any case much more powerful. The Kestrel was effectively developed into the Vulture, and that was not 'new', or reliable technology by the time the Buchon came along.

Captain Dunsel · 01-26-2009, 08:34 PM

As someone who's watched The Battle of Britain many, many times, it certainly looks like it has the Buchon's nose and cylinder bank bulges.

Also, didn't the Merlin and DB601/603/605 turn in different directions? If so, looking at the prop should tell you which way it turns, giving a hint as to the engine's manufacturer.

CD

MikeGazdik · 01-27-2009, 12:56 AM

It is not inverted, so it is certainly a Rolls Royce and not a DB.

Heinz · 01-27-2009, 03:07 AM

That is a Buchon.

Graeme · 01-27-2009, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BombTaxi

That is almost certainly a Merlin-engined HA-1112M1L Buchon.

G'day BT, Airliners.net certainly agrees with you...

Photos: Hispano HA-1112-M1L Buchon Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

...but one of the most identifiable features on the HA-1112-MIL are the 20mm wing cannons...

...which are missing from the photo. Simply removed to mimic a more "realistic" Bf-109? (Which Hispano appeared in the 'Battle of Britain' movie?).

Is it possible that Airliners.net is wrong? (wouldn't be the first time). Maybe the machine gun armed HA-1109-MIL?...

Should the exhaust stacks be bigger in the photo to be the HA-1112-MIL?..

Interesting photo. An Hispano re-engined with a Daimler-Benz...

File:Me109 G-6 D-FMBB 1.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MikeGazdik · 01-27-2009, 09:12 AM

There are no exhaust stacks on that plane. The exhaust studs are sticking out of the cylinder head. Possible the restoration team is having trouble locating a set of stacks or have to have them made.

Airframes · 01-27-2009, 01:59 PM

You're probably right about the exhaust stacks, Mike; I guess they're waiting for some to be fitted. But yes, it is a 'Buchon', with a Rolls Royce Merlin engine.
The CASA was built as a '109 G from the firewall back, and was delivered to Spain, originally, in 'kit form'. The first few were fitted with Daimler Benz engines, and sunsequently, the CASA works used the Merlin.
The name 'Buchon' was derived from the appearance of the front lower cowling, being deep and rather bulbous, and 'Buchon' is a type of large breasted Pigeon - hence the 'nickname'.
Buchons have been used in most War movies since about 22 were aquired from the Spanish Air Force,for the making of the movie 'The Battle of Britain', in 1968. These aircraft were modified to resemble '109E's as far as was possible, with 'clipped' wingtips and braced tailplanes. Most '109's' on the airshow circuit have been Buchons, acquired from the film studios, and two appeared in the 1990 movie 'Memphis Bell', and others in a number of TV movies and other programmes since.

01-26-2009, 04:44 PM	#1
Trebor Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,107	4 bladed 109? this is the wierdest looking BF-109 I've ever seen Tillamook Air Museum 38 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! __________________ THANKS NJACO FOR THE SIG PIC!! Southern Comfort III of the 8th Air Force, 44th Bombardment Group. Captain George R. Insley (pilot) commanding, Rudolph Jandreau Engineer/top turret gunner

01-26-2009, 04:50 PM	#2
ccheese Older Than Dirt Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia Posts: 7,309	I think the four bladed 109's had the Rolls-Royce engine in it. Charles __________________ I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either....

01-26-2009, 04:57 PM	#4
Geedee Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 765	I reckon its a Buchon and not a 'pukka' 109. License built by the Sspanish and fitted with the RR Merlin. __________________ Cheers Gary Not only am I a master of suspense, but I... http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/sta...ect-18113.html "I’ll never worry about meeting a FW 190 in a 51 since I was able to outturn, outdive and generally out-maneuver him at all altitudes, from 23,000 feet to the deck; I could follow him in anything and do a lot more besides.” Richard D Bishop, 11 Sept 1944, 55th FG

01-26-2009, 05:28 PM	#6
BombTaxi Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brownhills, W. Mids, UK Posts: 1,189	That is almost certainly a Merlin-engined HA-1112M1L Buchon. There was also a K1L version using the Hispano-Suiza 12Z engine. The Buchon often stands in for 109s in film and on TV. There was also a Merlin-engined He111 built in Spain after the war, the CASA 2.111. This has also made film appearances. And finally, Avia built 109G's more-or-less 'out-of-the-box' as the S-99, and produced an S-199 variant as well, which was used by the Israelis in 1948. These were Jumo 211 powered, I believe Edit: Colin, the 109 prototype was powered by a RR Kestrel. About half the power of the Merlins in the Buchon/ CASA 2.11, IIRC! __________________ Good generals think about tactics. Great generals think about logistics. "If freedom is to be saved and enlarged, poverty must be ended. There is no other solution." - Nye Bevan "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee" - John Donne, Meditation XVII

01-26-2009, 06:33 PM	#8
Waynos Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 914	Bomb Taxi is right, it was only the 109 prototype that had Kestrel power, Buchons using the Merlin or Hispano Suiza. __________________ BlondeValkyrie - Bugger off and host your OWN pictures you thieving twat

01-26-2009, 04:57 PM	#3
Colin1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1,760	Unless I'm mistaken that's a Rolls Royce Kestrel-engined HA 1112 M-1-L Buchon As far as I'm aware, the Germans had two attempts at four-bladed props, both for high-altitude fighters. One was the Blohm und Voss Bv155 (a Bf109 modified and built by BuV) and the Bf109-H1. At less extreme altitudes, German designers didn't seem to necessarily equate more propeller blades with more power and were happy they could get by with the conventional three-bladed configuration

01-26-2009, 06:57 PM	#9
BombTaxi Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brownhills, W. Mids, UK Posts: 1,189	Hmm, a quick scoot around the web suggests that the Kestrel was used in the 109, He112 and Ju87 prototypes, but not in the Buchon. It was a design of 1927 vintage and turned out 745hp - although it topped out at about 1050hp with higher octane fuels later in it's career. Just from the age of the design, I find it hard to believe this was in the Buchon, 20 years after the engine was first introduced - the Merlin was in any case much more powerful. The Kestrel was effectively developed into the Vulture, and that was not 'new', or reliable technology by the time the Buchon came along. __________________ Good generals think about tactics. Great generals think about logistics. "If freedom is to be saved and enlarged, poverty must be ended. There is no other solution." - Nye Bevan "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee" - John Donne, Meditation XVII

01-26-2009, 08:34 PM	#10
Captain Dunsel Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Near McGuire AFB, NJ Posts: 165	As someone who's watched The Battle of Britain many, many times, it certainly looks like it has the Buchon's nose and cylinder bank bulges. Also, didn't the Merlin and DB601/603/605 turn in different directions? If so, looking at the prop should tell you which way it turns, giving a hint as to the engine's manufacturer. CD

01-27-2009, 12:56 AM	#11
MikeGazdik Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 240	It is not inverted, so it is certainly a Rolls Royce and not a DB.

01-27-2009, 03:07 AM	#12
Heinz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Posts: 6,731	That is a Buchon. __________________

01-27-2009, 09:12 AM	#14
MikeGazdik Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 240	There are no exhaust stacks on that plane. The exhaust studs are sticking out of the cylinder head. Possible the restoration team is having trouble locating a set of stacks or have to have them made.

01-27-2009, 01:59 PM	#15
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,046	You're probably right about the exhaust stacks, Mike; I guess they're waiting for some to be fitted. But yes, it is a 'Buchon', with a Rolls Royce Merlin engine. The CASA was built as a '109 G from the firewall back, and was delivered to Spain, originally, in 'kit form'. The first few were fitted with Daimler Benz engines, and sunsequently, the CASA works used the Merlin. The name 'Buchon' was derived from the appearance of the front lower cowling, being deep and rather bulbous, and 'Buchon' is a type of large breasted Pigeon - hence the 'nickname'. Buchons have been used in most War movies since about 22 were aquired from the Spanish Air Force,for the making of the movie 'The Battle of Britain', in 1968. These aircraft were modified to resemble '109E's as far as was possible, with 'clipped' wingtips and braced tailplanes. Most '109's' on the airshow circuit have been Buchons, acquired from the film studios, and two appeared in the 1990 movie 'Memphis Bell', and others in a number of TV movies and other programmes since.

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