About German long range bombers....

[plan_D]

The USN used torpedo and dive bombers exclusively in the Pacific theatre. The A-36 Apache was a diver bomber. The Hudson and Vengeance were dive bombers.

The thing is with dive bombers is any fast and agile aircraft that can carry a bomb externally can dive bomb.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

to a cirtain extent, they will never beat a -87 for example in the dive bombing role, but then, atleast they can fight their way home........

[mosquitoman]

Originally Posted by plan_D

The Hudson and Vengeance were dive bombers.

A Hudson as a dive bomber

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by mosquitoman

A Hudson as a dive bomber

Believe it or not the Hudson (A-28, A-29, PBO-1) were considered maneuvable and easily flown. I have a POH copy and it seems like a real simple aircraft.

[plan_D]

Apparently it was used as one, despite the fact it carried it's bombs internally. The Ju-87 wasn't the best dive bomber, it's just the most famous.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i was just using it as an example, that's why i said

Originally Posted by the lanc

for example

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

I agree. Sure dive bombers were effective in the early years but were they necessary? No. Britain and America didnt really have any, they had P-38's and Mossies doing low level bombing and being able to escape afterwards and fight their way home, which was much more effective.

Agreed the Stutas were very effective at the beginning the war with the fast Blitzkrieg but the Fw-190's and Me-262's doing low level ground attack and bombing was just as effective and the aircraft were better.

[Monkeysee1]

I have heard, and correct me if I am wrong, most of you are far better scholars than I on these subjects..., anyway, that the Germans wanted every bomber to be a dive bomber and the engineering limitations of the day prevented a heavy bomber from accomplishing that.

That the Germans started looking at a heavy bomber for NY when the US entered the war.

That Goering hated the idea.

That the Luftwaffe plan involved dive bombers because they thought of airpower as tactical not strategic. Harris was wrong, bombers don't end wars but they end them sooner.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by Smokey

Hitler did'nt need long range bombers to beat Stalin; if he had launched Operation Barbarossa on the original date (ie 2 months earlier) than thw German army could have been in Moscow in August/September/October 1941.

He couldn't of launched earlier really. Unseaonal rains during the period had turned many of the roads the German Army wanted to use into mud. At the earliest he couldof launched maybe 3 weeks earlier, and even then with some difficulty in large sections of the steppe.

[syscom3]

For Germany to have an effective long range bomber to destroy the Ural factories, they would have needed to deploy dozens of bomb groups, just like the RAF and 8th AF had to do. And if the Russians dispersed the factories or put them underground, then the bomber would be for naught.

I think the key would be to hammer away at the oil fields in the Caspian Sea. Its a recurring theme for every theatre and combatant. No fuel = no tanks or planes.

I also agree that the Luftwaffe emphysis on dive bombing almost ammounted to a fetish. It has its place, but at a certein point, you have to say its not going to work for this strategy or doctrine.

For the long range bombing of America, as I stated in another thread (and this also applies to American strategy), does anyone think that a long range bomber that WILL take battle damage can successfully fly over 2000 miles back home? Look at the B29's against Japan before Iwo Jima, and you have your answer. Nope!

[reddragon]

I was under the impression that the Luftwaffe was developed to support the army, meaning they felt there was no need for long-range aircraft. I'm also under the impression that many of their aircraft were built on the lessons learned from the Spanish civil war and the designs and tactics they used in that conflict worked very well against the enemy so little thought was given to taking on a stronger opponent.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Monkeysee1

I have heard, and correct me if I am wrong, most of you are far better scholars than I on these subjects..., anyway, that the Germans wanted every bomber to be a dive bomber and the engineering limitations of the day prevented a heavy bomber from accomplishing that.

That the Germans started looking at a heavy bomber for NY when the US entered the war.

That Goering hated the idea.

That the Luftwaffe plan involved dive bombers because they thought of airpower as tactical not strategic. Harris was wrong, bombers don't end wars but they end them sooner.

Yes Hitler ordered that every aircraft be able to be a dive bomber or bomber. That is what limited many of his aircraft like the Me-262. When it first went into production he ordered that it be be built as a bomber.

The Germans were actually looking for a Heavy Bomber to attack the US before the ware even started in Europe. I have more info on this like copies of documents listing prospeected targets and what not. It is rather interesting.

Goering was not too keen on the concept because he felt the Luftwaffe was more needed against Russia at the time. He felt that long range bombers would be better suited there. I guess it was one thing that he was right with but it did not matter anyhow.

As for the long range aircraft that Germany should have developed sooner. Hitler believed that the War would be over quickly and that long range aircraft were not needed. The Stukas would do fine with Blitzkrieg tactics. Also when the war broke out Germany had Ju-88's and Dornier Do-17 which were fast bombers and at the time could out run almost any fighter the allies had, notice I said almost not all of them. Due to the fact that Hitler thought that the war would end quickly he ordered that no new designs be developed that can not be produced by 1942 because the war would be over by then and they would not be needed. By 1941 he knew he was wrong and then they started with new designs but it was too late.

Hope this helps you some.

[schwarzpanzer]

'Bomber' Harris was certainly proven wrong, bombers don't win wars.

Disagree, I had figures for entire German oil production before and after a raid by B17's, dropped like a stone.

With it went the planes, Panzers etc.

Also I think the Enola Gay might have helped win it, just a tad?


A lot of Germanys heavy bombers were ex-civilian craft, though I think the Ju290 started as a bomber, became a Lufthansa airliner, then a bomber again!

Anyway these were not sturdy craft and made of corrugated iron etc were not in the B17 or Lancs league.

The thing is with dive bombers is any fast and agile aircraft that can carry a bomb externally can dive bomb.

Ah, ah, ah!

The Mustang was considered for dive-bombing, but was deemed far too fast.

The A-36 Apache was a diver bomber. The Hudson and Vengeance were dive bombers.

You forgot the Dauntless, how could you!

Was the Apache ever used operationally? I doubt it was.

to a cirtain extent, they will never beat a -87 for example in the dive bombing role

Unnecessary with rockets, dunno about with cannons.

Think it would be an advantage with rockets though? certainly with cannons.

[syscom3]

Didnt the 332FG, the famous "tuskegee airmen" fly the A36 in Italy?

And I could be wrong, but the Hudson was a naval patrol aircaft used in "glide bombing". I dont think it was used as a dive bomber.

[SM79Sparviero]

Didnt the 332FG, the famous "tuskegee airmen" fly the A36 in Italy?

A36 dive bomber was born as a "lark mirror", a pretext to get money for P51 fighter. I don't know if it really performed well as a dive bomber on the battlefield.
A36/p51 was originally linked to a request from RAF for a fighter .USAAF soon acknowledged the superlative performances of the new aircraft due to its technological innovations(ex.: laminar profile wing; a cooling system with a nearly futile drag thanks to "Meredith effect";Merlin engine ) but they could not have a further budget for a new fighter, so they formally required P51( or A36A) as "dive bomber".