Aces with 200+ victories: how do they stack up in 2012?

[Juha]

Mr Juha
1)That wingman was a former bomber pilot that executed poorly fighter manouvers. Any way he parachuted safely.



2) Mr Juha if some historians claim that Hartmann had actually 280 kills instead of 352 , they discuss his ability to claim with accurancy
But if some ishorians claim that he had 80 or 120 kills instead of 352,then they discuss his honor and his character. Because such big mistake can be only intentional. Liars are liars in every aspect of their lifes.

3) However there are things that raise questions about Hartmann. For example his low claims of bombers and Il2s , or his avoidance of low level combat. Thats quite serious because Lw s primary role was to support and defend the army, . If you shoot down all the escorts but the bombers do their job undisturbed you have failed your mission .

1) Yes I know
2) not necessarily, as I have wrote, AVG (American Volunteer Group) got rewards for 297 Japanese a/c destroyed but according to Japanese sources they destroyed only 115. I'd not describe them as liars, they used best possible tactic against Japanese but just that tactic might well led to overclaiming. Hartmann used same sort of tactic, it might well be with same level of overclaiming. As I wrote, some Germans also dogfight with VVS fighters, Lipfert surely and Barkhorn at least time to time, staying longer with contact with enemy, while risky, might well improve claim accuracy. In fast moving dangerous situation, where one could not follow long what happened to his target because that would have been too risky, overclaiming is natural and target fixation easily fatal. There were few cases of intentional frauding but one very easily overclaimed unintentionally. Are you claiming that LW fighter pilots in during the BoB were liars or RAF fighter pilots in 1941-42? I don't, aircombat is very fast moving and very stressing to most pilots. There were exeptions, who had exeptional situation awardness and very realistic assesment on their own abilities who were very reliable claimers and few AFs had very effective system of debriefing, which was vital to accurate claiming, more so than that that some byrocrats decided several months later 1000 km away was a claim valid or not based on paperwork made soon after claim. Germans didn't normally use gun cameras. German system had its good points but also its weaknesses.

Juha

[Njaco]

I think what he is saying Juha is that an updated score that may be +/- 50 or so kills can be reasonable but a large discrepancy reflects more on the character of the pilot and not innocent claims. That is something we really don't tolerate. Thats Revisionist History at its worst.

[Juha]

I think what he is saying Juha is that an updated score that may be +/- 50 or so kills can be reasonable but a large discrepancy reflects more on the character of the pilot and not innocent claims. That is something we really don't tolerate. Thats Revisionist History at its worst.

Hello Njaco
so what is your explanation to LW fighter pilots' overclaiming during the BoB or RAF fighter pilots overclaiming in 41-42?

Juha

[Njaco]

Or USAAF 8th AF in '43-44? More action = more mistakes. Its the nature of the business and really not an exact science. I can take whatever fudging the numbers that appears - unless its blatant. But I will also accept what the record books say. Hartmann = 352. 'nuff said. And at this stage of the game, does it really matter?

[Juha]

Or USAAF 8th AF in '43-44? More action = more mistakes. Its the nature of the business and really not an exact science. I can take whatever fudging the numbers that appears - unless its blatant. But I will also accept what the record books say. Hartmann = 352. 'nuff said. And at this stage of the game, does it really matter?

It's not really matter, more like Trivial Pursuit level question, much more important was what III./JG 52 really achieved. Or for ex when one Russian researcher noted that amongst others Horst Ademeit's claims were accurate, one Polish researcher noted that a JG54 veteran claimed that Adameit claimed victories of his young wingmen as his own. IMHO did Ademeit "steal" his wingmen claims or not is impossible to clarify anymore and much more important is that Ademeit's Rotte was very effective also in real world.

Juha

[drgondog]

Or USAAF 8th AF in '43-44? More action = more mistakes. Its the nature of the business and really not an exact science. I can take whatever fudging the numbers that appears - unless its blatant. But I will also accept what the record books say. Hartmann = 352. 'nuff said. And at this stage of the game, does it really matter?

I have found two things regarding 8th AF FIGHTER claims/credits in contrast with other USAAF units in other theatres. First, the VCB had pretty good systematic processes that a.) described a destroyed aircraft, and b.) required eye witness corroboration or conclusive combat film. There were a lot of downgrades after thourough Intelligence Offcer cross examinations - and even more when the claims arrived at VCB for final judgment.

The second thing I am finding is that while incomplete, the LW accounting of their losses was objective. Where many overclaims result in contrast with a LW review >60% damaged is the infamous crash landing in which the aircraft was ultimately repaired.

Last comment. As I have done many deep dives in various battles I have found the fighter claims are about 100% of the associated LW write offs - the only problem with that is that by gawd, the bombers DID shoot some fighters down so the result has been about 10% overclaim to matching LW losses as a Generalization.

[Vincenzo]

drgodong in your work have you checked all others allieds claims that may overlap with those of 8th AF FC?

[Njaco]

I only brought the 8th up because I just read where on one of the runs in Nov. 44, there were somewhere in the area of 200 claims made by bomber gunners when the LW lost only about 37 a/c. And I'm going off memory here and please, I don't want this to be construed as a bash on the 8th or any other AF. I just see claims/credits as not a concrete endeavour.

[tyrodtom]

The 8th AF knew when they were giving credits for aircraft shot down by bomber gunners that there could be no relation between the totals credited, and aircraft actually shot down.

They wanted to give every encouragement possible to those gunners going thru misery, and danger to man those guns. Every aircraft thru a bomber formation got shot at by multiple gunners, if anybody saw a aircraft go down, everybody who fired on it, or thought they did, got credit. Not 1/20th or whatever, but 1 whole credit. Very few people would be checking their watches and logging when they fired, or logging when they saw a aircraft smoking or explode.
Everything was sorted out in the debriefing, a really hopeless way to sort out the facts of how many were actually shot down.

[drgondog]

drgodong in your work have you checked all others allieds claims that may overlap with those of 8th AF FC?

Yes - the important questions regarding Allied calims other than 8th and 9th AF for ETO are Spitfire claims from August 1942 through Dec 1943 because the RAF was continually supporting Penetration and Withdrawals for both USAAF units - as well as TAC claims for sweeps etc... Then fast forward to Post D-Day ops through the Battle of the Bulge when more RAF Wings were in contact with LW.

To eliminate such noise, I then dove into air combat engagements in Germany where the combatants were majority 8th/9th FC Mustangs and 8th AF Lightnings from December 1943 through September 1944... when neither RAF nor 8th/9th AF Thunderbolts were significant factors in Most of the air battles for which there is a lot of data.

[Raymond Kemp]

T's and C's book is unreliable source, not necessarily because of errors by writers. For ex Mason's Battle over Britain, which was a groundbreaking book in late 60s is now unreliable source because research has gone ahead and we know much more than in 60s, not because of that Mason was/is poor aviation historian. I recall reading/hearing somewhere that Hartmann wasn't overly enthusiant on T's and C's project and gave somewhat lukewarm support to it, so T and C had to fill up some blanks from other sources. And of course they didn't have access to Soviet archives so Soviet part of the story is based on what Germans knew/thought they knew/wanted to tell on that side of the story. And the stories of the bounty and trial not necessarily originated from Hartmann.

Juha

I've been reading this thread with great interest since becoming a brand spanking new member here; however, this post raised my eyebrows and I felt compelled to respond. I am the grandson of the late Col. Raymond F. Toliver who has many of you know is one of the authors of the book "The Blond Knight of Germany". Since my grandfather's passing I've recently come into possession of my grandfather's research papers for "The Blond Knight of Germany". Included with the papers are the original hand signed letters and documents (over 100) between my grandfather and Erich Hartmann starting in 1956 when my grandfather's research for the book officially got off the ground with his very first letter from Erich Hartmann written in German dated January 14, 1956. The letter was sent to my grandfather while he was stationed at Wethersfield Air Force base in Essex, England.

Although I'm still researching the documents, one thing I can say for sure is that any reference that you've heard or read that Erich Hartmann wasn't "enthusiant" and only gave "lukewarm" support to the Blond Knight project is completly false. The letters between my grandfather and Erich clearly show that there was a very close working relationship and Erich was very cooperative and enthusisatic for the project. The letters support this without any doubt including the letters after the book was published. Many of the letters are personal in nature and it is very evident there was a bond between my grandfather and Erich.

There is a historical aspect to the documents that shows the work and research my grandfather devoted for over 12 years in writing the "Blond Knight of Germany". The letters between my grandfather and Eric have never been made public. I plan to release many of the letters and documents as I continue my own research. In an age when there were no faxes, internet, etc., I find it remarkable the amount of research my grandfather was able to gather into making "The Blond Knight of Germany".

[buffnut453]

Hi Ray,

Welcome aboard! There seems to be a common thread that "modern" histories are somehow superior than older works. Part of the problem lies in the lack of source identification in many histories from the 50s and 60s. Equally problemmatic are incorrect statements made in some older histories that have since been accepted as "fact" - just because something is published does not make it correct. Unfortunately, it's a tangled web for those of us who strive to gain deeper understanding and bring the best of "old" histories with the wider access to "new" source material that the internet and the opening of new source material has made possible.

Personally, I'm amazed at what your grandfather managed to achieve in an era without ready access to the internet. You should, rightly, be proud of his accomplishments.

Cheers,
B-N

[Raymond Kemp]

Hello Buffnut,

Thank you for welcoming me aboard. You're right about the old and the new as it pertains to early historical works and today. One thing is for sure, my grandfather was meticulous at documenting and organizing his research for the facts. As I go through what I will call the "Hartmann Papers", I can see numerous instances where my grandfather would strive for accuracy and investigate Erich's documentation, particularly if Erich was uncertain about dates. One instance that comes to mind was Erich's encounter with P-51s and my grandfather's ensuing research through fighter unit records to assure date accuracy. Again, these are documents that have never been made public and I plan to make them available soon.

Thank you again for the welcome! I appreciate your thoughts and time!

Raymond Kemp

[Rogi]

Hello Buffnut,

Thank you for welcoming me aboard. You're right about the old and the new as it pertains to early historical works and today. One thing is for sure, my grandfather was meticulous at documenting and organizing his research for the facts. As I go through what I will call the "Hartmann Papers", I can see numerous instances where my grandfather would strive for accuracy and investigate Erich's documentation, particularly if Erich was uncertain about dates. One instance that comes to mind was Erich's encounter with P-51s and my grandfather's ensuing research through fighter unit records to assure date accuracy. Again, these are documents that have never been made public and I plan to make them available soon.

Thank you again for the welcome! I appreciate your thoughts and time!

Raymond Kemp

I wish in the near future that we youth keep to taking care of such valuable historical records. I'm reminded of how I had a passion for aviation when I was younger, when kids were out watching the newest shows I was with my father building model aircraft, that fueled a passion for history and aviation that I still have today, I can recal some of those weekends and weekdays like they were yesterday. Granted I did have a huge passion for Beast Wars back when I was a kid

I just hope that in this world of texting and acronyms we don't end up writing full historical records in acronyms, can you imagine the horror?

I'm glad that someone like your grandfather kept those records well after his book was released, and am glad that you have a chance to share these true treasures with the rest of the world.

Thank you your posts made my week,

Igor


P.S. Welcome to the forum! I can't beleive I forgot that

[Njaco]

Welcome to the forum Mr. Kemp! I have a very well worn copy of "The Blonde Knight of Germany" (bought in 1972) along with "Horrido". Very glad you could shed some light on the research process your grandfather went through!