I found some disputes about Erich Hartmann's victory claims and the article in french magazine "Le fana de l'aviation" #423 (by Dimitri Khazanov) in old thread called "The Best Bf109 variants". Khazanov suggests that the actual Hartmann's Abschussliste is only 70-80 victories, not 352. Of course, some people are not agree with him
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I don't think that my opinion is the Ultimate Truth. However, here is some interesting statistics.
According to Toliver and Constable, Hartmann flew 1405 mission of which 825 resulted in aerial combat. OK, that's pretty cool. But... 13 December 1943 Hartmann recorded 150 victories on 391 sorties. The ratio is 2,6 sorties for 1 claim. This is a VERY high level of effectiviness in comparison with achievements of other aces, both German and Allied. So, it's clear that at the end of 1943 Erich Hartmann was already very skilful pilot and very tough opponent.
However, the total of his sorties is 1405. Consequently, between 14 December 1943 and 8 May 1945 Hartmann flew 1014 combat missions. And he scored... OMG! Only 202 victories! So, the ratio is more than 5 sorties for 1 claim. Surprise!
I don't want to speculate now about reason of this strange thing. I just want to demonstrate that THERE ARE some strange things in Hartmann's Abschussliste (and some other famous German aces too).
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By the way, I read some books of Dimitri Khazanov. Well, as a historian he's someone I'm calling a 'serious historian'. It means tons of documents, tons of citations and nothing of his own thoughts. But his article was heavily critisized and... I wanna say what I think.
CharlesBronson:
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Off course this suposed "historian" forget to tell the readers the enormous lies wich are included in some russian airwar narrations, suchs as " Lilia Litvak was killed by 8 BF-109" or "Alexander Pokryshkin fought alone with 25 Messerschmitts" completely and absolute crap.
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"Pokryshkin against 25 Me-109" - this is
"a large amount of bullshit", I fully agree. But what about
"the enormous lies" which are included in some GERMAN airwar narrations?
Some examples, just for fun.
4 July 1943 Theo Weissenberger and another five pilots of JG 5 were sent to secure Nazi's naval convoy. At some point they noticed a large formation of 25-30 Soviet bombers, including (according to fighter reports) Hampdens, Il-2s, Pe-2s, and Bostons. In aerial combat six pilots of JG 5 shot down 16 Soviet aircrafts. Weissenberger himself claimed 6 victories.
This is what some people (including historian W. Girbig) believe is true. But is this ACTUALLY the truth? No. Instead of "25-30 russian bombers" there were only SEVEN bombers - 3 DB-3s, 2 Hampdens and 2 Il-2s of 6 MTAD VVS SF. 5 bombers were shot down by fighters and 2 DB-3s were heavily damaged but returned at base safely. As you can see, 5 russian aircrafts were scored to Weissenberger and others as 16 "confirmed kills". And where are these "confirmed" Pe-2s and Bostons?
Was Weissenberger a "liar" or someone else? Well, I don't know. But, in fact, there is a massive overclaiming.
Another example. 13 April 1943. According to Girbig (see "Jagdgeschwader 5 'Eismeer'"), on this day Heinrich Ehrler, Weissenberger, Brunner, Mors an Faldick were involved in combat with some 20+ russian fighters and shot down 18 (!) of them. Ehrler and Weissenberger both claimed 6 victories, Brunner claimed 4 victories.
But how many russian fighters actually were sent on sortie 13 April 1943? The answer is some kind of a shock. Only FOUR fighters fought with Experten. That were 4 Hurricanes of 78 IAP VVS SF. Two Hurricanes (serzhant Besput'ko and starshiy serzhant Strelnikov) were shot down by Messerschmitts and two other Hurricanes (starshiy leitenant Veryovkin and serzhant Kostenok) were badly damaged but returned safely. So, 2 russian aircrafts became 18 "confirmed victories" in Experten's reports.
As we can see, not only Soviet propaganda worked very well but Nazi's one too.
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Mr Kazhanov is Russian after all, you cannot wait for much clear jugdement from his side.
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But hey, from WHICH side we can wait the clear judgement?
Russians? Germans? Americans? Or someone else?
OK, some russians historians lies. However, some german historians lies too. So, who is better?
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2 - Aniway the second part of this argument is plain wrong, Of his 352 victories, 260 were achieved against russian fighters , seven against U.S. Fifteenth Air Force Mustangs, and the other 85 includes large numbers of twin engined DB-2/3, Pe-2, Tu-2, Il-2 and others 2 crew aircrafts.
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Wrong.
93,4% of Hartmann's Abschussliste are various fighters,
2,9% are Il-2 Stormoviks,
3,4% are bombers and
0,3% others. See Toliver/Constable and
Kacha`s Luftwaffe Page.
Udet:
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Letīs not forget the soviet ministry for mythology affairs
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Did really exist one?
I suggests that Dr. Gebbels was not a Russian.
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has it the soviet union won the war all by itself. Yeah Right.
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And some people in the world think that the UK/USA won the war all by itself. Anyway, what point of view is correct? Or they are both incorrect?
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Lend-Lease sent them very little (which happened to be "crap" compared to similar soviet produced items).
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Well, these are the american and european historians who are considering Lend-Lease was a "crap". Or you think that P-40 and Hurricane were very cool fighters, even better than P-51, P-47 and Yak-9, La-5? P-39 was rejected by both USAAF and RAF. But Aleksander Pokryshkin (46 personal and 6 shared victories) scored some 40 of his victories while flying "Aircobra".
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