Airplanes for FAA, 1943-44

[tomo pauk]

What kinds of planes would you like to see on board of the RN carriers, in service from early 1943 - late '44 ? Not LL stuff (not even the LL engines, nor armament to be used), but something that UK industry was capable to produce for that time frame. From fighters to bombers, toss your ideas

[davebender]

Replace .50cal MGs with 20mm cannon and the F4U is as good as they get for a WWII era CV based fighter aircraft.

Unfortunately the RN cannot make full use of the TBF torpedo bomber as the bomb bay will not accept standard 18" aerial torpedoes. So that's where the design effort should go. The Stringbag was obsolete by 1939 (when Japan introduced the B5N) so a new British torpedo bomber is long overdue.

The B5N was pretty good so I'd be tempted to copy it. You will need a lightweight British radial engine ILO the Nakajima radial engine. With a bit more hp you could also include some armor protection.

[PJay]

I guess the Typhoon/Tempest could be navalised.
I'd like the idea of a Sea Mosquito but I don't know if wooden aircraft do well at sea, and even with folding wings they'd take up a lot of space.
The Barracuda was less than optimal.

[tomo pauk]

The low-risk approach would be a Merlin-based fighter (though I'd really like to see a Hercules-based fighter), 4 cannons, circa 150 gals of fuel, inward retracting U/C. The attack plane could be designed around a bomb bay, to feature Hercules, 2 wing cannons, 2 x .303 back.
A high-risk approach could involve Griffon and/or Sabre, the rest about the same.

[davebender]

Are you planning to use this aircraft during WWII? If so then both engines are bad choices as both were in short supply. Ironically even the RR Merlin was in short supply, requiring Britain to obtain thousands from Packard.

If you are going to import the engine, aluminum for the airframe and high octane aviation gasoline then why not just import a F4U?

[tomo pauk]

F4U and other LL planes would be acquired as they were historically.
The UK was still producing planes for FAA. My intention being to check out what the people here think about the best stuff that might've been built, for the specified era.

[RCAFson]

The Barracuda was less than optimal.

Yet better than anything else available at the time.

[RCAFson]

F4U and other LL planes would be acquired as they were historically.
The UK was still producing planes for FAA. My intention being to check out what the people here think about the best stuff that might've been built, for the specified era.

It seems likely that the Seafire XV and Barracuda V could have been available much earlier if the FAA was given priority for Griffon engine development and deliveries, however Spitfire XIV development might have suffered as a result.

[Kryten]

A Navalised typhoon, usure if you could achieve take off speed off a deck though?

[davebender]

Good luck getting PM Churchill to sign that document. I suspect FAA priority was so low they would have trouble obtaining Packard built Merlin engines.

[Shortround6]

The low-risk approach would be a Merlin-based fighter (though I'd really like to see a Hercules-based fighter), 4 cannons, circa 150 gals of fuel, inward retracting U/C. The attack plane could be designed around a bomb bay, to feature Hercules, 2 wing cannons, 2 x .303 back.
A high-risk approach could involve Griffon and/or Sabre, the rest about the same.

150 gallons is too little fuel for a strike aircraft. Barracudas had two 90 gallon tanks and most had an extra pair of 24 gallon tanks for up to 228 Imp gallons internal (in the wings).

Fairey Fireflys were in production (first delivered) in March of 1943 built to a 1939 specification that was revised in 1940, first prototype flew in Dec 1941. Used Griffon engines. No bomb bay but????

Hercules may be too low powered for a strike aircraft or even a fighter. Unless the British can figure the low drag cowing out sooner what ever extra power it may have may be used up fighting the extra drag. Please remember that it is about 10% smaller in displacement than the Wright R-2600 and the sleeve valves can only make up for so much.

[tomo pauk]

Well, Hercules is a low-risk part; the issue with low-risk engines is usually that power delivered is not world beating. The 1570-1770 HP versions would be as good as pre-1944 R-2600s for powering a strike plane. Agree that UK had better fighter engines, though.
The 150 imp gals is a figure for a fighter, not for a strike aircraft.
Perhaps it was too bad that Firefly did not featured at least a hull recess, so the torpedo could be nested there.

[Shortround6]

I don't have my books with me at the moment so Iam not sure when the 1770hp Hercules shows up. If you are at 1600hp or under things don't look so good.
While 150 gallons is better than a Seafire or Sea Hurricane it is a small amount compared to the American fighters. It is one thing to adapt existing fighters. It is another to design a second rate fighter just to use British parts when 1st class fighters already exist and are available. If the British are going to make their own planes and not use the LL planes then the Britsh planes should be as close to 1st class as they can get.

[renrich]

Recently read a book entitled "Flying the Edge," not a great read but went into a lot of detail about the USN testing a converted British landbased trainer called the Hawk which the Navy wanted to adopt where it would be the T45A Goshawk. A lot more to it than meets the eye. That program turned out to be a costly mess. Converting a landbased plane to a ship board plane seldom works out well. A lot easier to take a successful ship board AC, (like the F4U or F4 Phantom) and adapt it for landbased use.

[tomo pauk]

Hi, SR6,

If the British are going to make their own planes and not use the LL planes then the Britsh planes should be as close to 1st class as they can get.

I've covered that: "A high-risk approach could involve Griffon and/or Sabre"

I don't have my books with me at the moment so Iam not sure when the 1770hp Hercules shows up. If you are at 1600hp or under things don't look so good.

Again, no risk, no (high) power
1600 HP was available as early as late 1941, the Barracuda-sized plane should have no problems to perform. The Fairey-Youngman flaps should help.

While 150 gallons is better than a Seafire or Sea Hurricane it is a small amount compared to the American fighters. It is one thing to adapt existing fighters. It is another to design a second rate fighter just to use British parts when 1st class fighters already exist and are available.

A Merlin-engined fighter with 150 imp gals (~180 US gals) would have range (on internal fuel only) something in between the late F4U and F8F, the engine is far less thirsty. The resulting plane can be of such a size & weight to allow for a great climb, speed & range figures.
The Griffon/Sabre engined planes would be, indeed, better off with maybe 200 imp gals.