ALLIED HIGH ALTITUDE PLAYOFFS - Mustang vs. Thunderbolt

[plan_D]

If people are satisfied with what they have, generally they don't want to change. Especially if they've had that plane for a long time.

[Erich]

remember my comments awhile ago ? the Pioneer Mustang group in the 9th AF, the 354th fg were issued the P-51 first (December 1943) and then the unit was relieved of the Mustangs to be sent to the 8th and the 354th had to fly Jugs which they absolutely hated for escort duties and only in January/February of 45 were they again assigned the P-51 the Jug was hurriedly pushed into other 9th AF units

[DAVIDICUS]

Erich, no I don't recall but it is common knowledge that there was more or less a wholesale switch from P-47's to P-51's. Your post is consistent with what I had previously read which was that the the P-51 was greatly preferred over the P-47. (You mentioned the P-47 was "absolutely hated" for escort duties.

As my post above indicates, I am hearing on this thread that many P-47 pilots were unhappy with the switch to P-51's.

My question still stands. Do you know of any specific complaints by P-47 pilots concerning the switch to P-51's?

[Erich]

D :

My pilot interviews are with 8th AF primarily but also with 354th fg Pioneer vets and some P-47 vets that never switched their mounts of the 9th AF.

The 8th AF felt the Jug was good for it's intention ealrier in the war and that was to provide limited capabilites for escort but once inward of central Germany the Jugs performance of long range fell off. The Mustang filled the role to Prague and beyond. the 56th fg boyz of course have other opinions but had updated mounts later in the war

[lesofprimus]

The 2 pilots Im referring to were from the 9th AF, and felt that the punishment the -47 could handle, and its high altitude performance, were better suited to their mission profiles than the -51D... One round in the engine compartment and u were done....

I think alot of the opinions favoring the -47 are because of it ground attack and damage absorbtion abilities....

[Erich]

lets look at the role the 9th AF played. It's primary mission except for the 9th AF 354th was ground attack duties. only 3 units were flying the P-51 by the wars end and 1 of them the 363rd became an all important air recon unit. proof too is that the top 15 aces in the 9th AF were flying the P-51 and had the majority of kills in the bird. 2 pilots were from the P-51 equipped 10th PRG

[wmaxt]

David, your right about the hp of the Mustang it was down to about 700hp at 30k.

Erich, you have some valid points there.

I will stick with my 30,000ft split between the P-51/P-47 in a fighter capacity. In ground attack give me the Jug.

The plane prefference issue is big, sometimes a plane just fits and feels right, sometimes not. With the P-38s there was a huge range of acceptance of new aircraft. The 474FG refused to let theirs go and were allowed to keep them through the war. Others were happy at least at first, to go to 51s because of heating etc, many of those regetted it later based on performance. Another group was very happy to get 51s because of bad rep/dislike by commander of the P-38s. I've read less on the P-47/P-51 transitions but the hype was similar, a lot of pilots were told the P-51 was the best thing since sliced bread and wanted/happy to get it.

In the PTO 1 squadron went from P-38s to P-47s and their kill rates went way down. When they switched back they went back up. In the PTO the switch from P-38s was always resisted.

I have read that the diary of George Preddy listed them this way:
The P-38 is a wonderful flying ship.
The P-47 is an nice flying ship, later Sure getting disappointed in the Jug.
The P-51 is a good flying ship.

In the end you flew what they gave you!

wmaxt

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont know to me I would rather have the P-47 because as I stated up there she was rugged and reliable but she also had good performance. I also love the fact that she could get down and dirty doing the HOE hunting ground pounders. She was built for that ****, and I love her for it!

[Sal Monella]

I remember reading somewhere that the P-47 was better than the P-51 Mustang at altitudes over 25,000ft. It was a WWII fighter pilot who said it but I don't remember who.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well the P-47D-22 had a max speed of 435 mph at 30000 ft, the P-47N had a max speed of 467 mph at 32500 ft. The P-51D had a max speed of 437 mph at 25000 ft. So it had a higher speed at higher alttitudes but I do not know how the 2 compared in maneuaverability at high alltitudes. Now having said that I do not know, I would go with the P-47.

Some interesting facts for the P-47:

545.575 operational sorties made by 15.683 produced aircraft.
7.067 aircraft destroyed of which 3.572 in the air
3499 aircraft lost, amongst which...
884 lost in the air for a kill/loss ratio of 4,6/1
9.000+ locomotives destroyed
86.000+ rail wagons destroyed
6.000+ armored vehicles destroyed
68.000+ motor vehicles destroyed
60.000 horse-drawn vehicles destroyed

[epeon]

I talked to an engineer who worked on the P-47D as well as other models. He was a pilot as well and flew almost all the US inventory. Anyways, he said that the P-47D was vastly under rated because the official specifications were not accurate. They were based upon lower octane fuel. And by 1944 they were using 150 octane fuel in Europe. He said that you could easily overboost the engine and everyone did. Thus, he said that speeds in excess of 440 mph were easy to achieve. He told me that he flew a P-47D at war weights and, in tests, was able to achieve 450 mph at altitude.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

On the"Fighter vs. Interceptor" and "P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's" threads, there have been a number of comments to the effect that the P-47D hasn't been given a fair historical hearing as a result of the numerical superiority of the P-51D which has given the impression that the Mustang, as a dogfighter, reigned supreme in the skies of the ETO.

So how would the P-51D stack up against a later model P-47D (paddle blade and water injection)?

Specifically, how would the Mustang fare against the Thunderbolt at higher altitudes of say, 25,000 to 37,500 feet?

P-51B-15 - May 1944 with Wing Racks at 9680 (full combat load - no external fuel)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...level-blue.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...climb-blue.jpg

Net

Max Speed Max Climb
SL 380 4,380
20K 431 3,000
32K 410 1,200

Oct 1944 Test Comaprisons of P-47D, M and N

Summary http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...omp-p47dmn.jpg

Charts
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...7m-n-speed.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...7m-n-climb.jpg

Up through 32,000 feet the P-51B-15 with racks, full internal combat load, at full boost of 75" (5 minute) The 51B is faster through 29,000 feet than the P47D in this comparison, and still climbs slightly better at 32,000 feet (1,200fpm vs 1,100 fpm) The 51B-15 is faster than the M on the deck and slightly slower at 20,000 and climbs 10% slower at 20,000. At 32,000 feet the M is demonstrably faster and climbs faster.

At the end of the day, however, the P-51 in 16 months of ops in the ETO outscored the Jug AND the Lighning in combined air scores.. and more than double the P-47 during its entire Combat Operation period - at least 24 months for P-47 versus 16 for the 51.

The air to air ratio for the P-51 was 10:1, the Jug 7:1 and the Lightning 3:1.

The 'ratio' does NOT include other Combat Operations and Accident Losses.

BTW - for the 8th AF, the loss ratio of Mustangs lost while strafing is much less than the P-38 and less than the P-47. This is stricly based on USAAF Macr details regarding cause or probable cause of loss versus the Awards from USAAF VCB July 1945 totals for German a/c awards for destroyed on the ground

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...OPERATIONS.pdf

This article I wrote is going in my new book but it has all the 8th AF FC statistics to serve as a backdrop for comparing the 355th FG.

Whatever conclusions one wishes to draw about the Mustang - it was more effective at taking out the Luftwaffe than both the P-38 and P-47 combined.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

Erich, no I don't recall but it is common knowledge that there was more or less a wholesale switch from P-47's to P-51's. Your post is consistent with what I had previously read which was that the the P-51 was greatly preferred over the P-47. (You mentioned the P-47 was "absolutely hated" for escort duties.

As my post above indicates, I am hearing on this thread that many P-47 pilots were unhappy with the switch to P-51's.

My question still stands. Do you know of any specific complaints by P-47 pilots concerning the switch to P-51's?

For those that did not like the switch from P-47 to P-51 it was all about a perception of more ruggedness and reliability of the R-2800 over the Merlin/plumbing combo.

The late model D-25 and above had superior performance over the 51B and D above 30,000 feet in most categories.

But until it got the fuel that the M and N got - it got the baby sitting duties inbound and outbound while the 51s got to shoot down German a/c during target escort.. thats why the 51 had 1700 more air awards than the P-47 despite being in-theater in the ETO for 8 months less.

Besides - the primary strike zone for air combat was 2-3000 feet above the bombers all the way down to the deck and the 51 had the edge in just about every category except roll and middle zone dive speed.

[Marshall_Stack]

I have read a few accounts of WWII P-47 pilots who later flew in Korea and wished they still had their P-47s due to the fact that they were vulnerable in their ground attack duties with the P-51. I have even read an account of a P-40 pilot in the CBI theater who would have rather have kept his P-40 than change over to the P-51 due to the "miles of glycol plumbing" that the Merlin required (I guess since the Merlin had the intercooler it had more plumbing?).

I think that it will always depend on the pilot as far as preference. I personally would have wanted the P-47N.

[Zarathos]

One question? Why is Mustang D called high altitude player? I always thought, that it was powered by low altitude engine (US version of Merlin 66)?