American nightfighters pre-Black Widow

[kration]

I've just read 'Beaufighters in the Night' which is an superb book about a US nightfighter squadron which operated Beaufighters before converting to the P-61 Blackwidow.

But there was a comment in the book that they used cast-off British Beaufighters as there was no suitable US airframe for the nightfighter role. It referred to the Havoc as being tested as a nightfighter but discarded as being unsuitable.



I am intrigued about this, as the pre-war American idea about air defence seems ideally suited to night-fighting i.e. heavily armed multi-crew planes stooging about acting as defence (i.e. loitering)

The US also developed fast medium bombers, as did other nations who then adapted them as nightfighters. But although other nations were succesful in developing them as nightfighters, the US just seems to have given up or been unsuccesful, placing all their hopes in the P61.

The US adapted the P38 Lightning as a nighfighter late in the war (as the Night Lightning - excellent name!) and even the Hellcat - but none of them seemed succesful. Thought I'm surprised that the P38 Night Lightning didn't work out - with a bit of thought I'm sure they could have got a decent WOp station in that airframe (the rear bubble-canopy seemed a bit half-hearted).

So, my queston is, which of the pre-Blackwidow US airframes (i.e. early war) could have been developed as a decent nightfighter? And if it didn't work out, then why not?

[Shortround6]

I've just read 'Beaufighters in the Night' which is an superb book about a US nightfighter squadron which operated Beaufighters before converting to the P-61 Blackwidow...............................

So, my queston is, which of the pre-Blackwidow US airframes (i.e. early war) could have been developed as a decent nightfighter? And if it didn't work out, then why not?

As the US found out, none of the early war airframes were suitable. The American medium bombers were larger and bulker than the German twin engine bombers. This meant they were lousier candidates for night fighters (lower speed and climb) even if they were better bomb trucks. Early twin engine fighters (P-38 and Grumman prototypes) were too small to carry early AI radar which rather bulky stuff.

lack of success of the P-38 and the Navy fighters was more due to lack of targets than lack of ability. They didn't operate in the target rich environment that some other night fighters did.
They were also built in fewer numbers. 75 P-38s?
The Navy planes did score some success.

[davebender]

I think the A-20 could have been made into a decent night fighter. However neither the U.S. Army Air Corps nor the USN seemed to like this excellent light bomber. Like the P-39 fighter it was mostly produced to give away as Lend-Lease.

[vikingBerserker]

I think the A-20 was made into a night fighter called the P-70 but IIRC there were issues with the radar it was issued. The Hellcat did ok but the early ones had to be vectored in using TBF's.

I think of all the airframes available, I would have picked the P-38. I'm extremely surprised it never worked out.

[Shortround6]

I think the A-20 could have been made into a decent night fighter. However neither the U.S. Army Air Corps nor the USN seemed to like this excellent light bomber. Like the P-39 fighter it was mostly produced to give away as Lend-Lease.

Try looking up P-70.

Factsheets : Douglas P-70

Performance was not what was desired.

U.S. Army Air Corps did make a fair amount of use of the A-20 bombers but the A-20s didn't have the range of a B-25 and so was much less useful for patrol work or longer ranged missions.

[norab]

The P-38 did work out, just too late

Lockheed P-38M Night Lightning

There was also the F4U-2

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_F4U-2.html


There was also a version of the F6G

Night Fighters
The Navy saw the need for night fighters and started the Project Affirm program in early 1942, originally with Corsairs equipped with primitive AI (Air Interception) radar sets built by MIT engineers. In 1943, the Hellcat emerged as the preferred night fighter because of its easier landing characteristics and greater stability as a gun platform. The F6F-3E, converted in the field at MCAS Quonset Point, was the first Hellcat night fighter, using the AI radar, red cockpit lighting (to preserve the pilot's night vision), and without an easily scratched Plexiglass windscreen fairing. Eighteen F6F-3E's were built. (On November 26, 1943, Butch O'Hare, flying an unmodified F6F-3 on a night mission with a TBF Avenger, disappeared over the Gilberts. One of the best books I have read about the Pacific War, Crossing the Line, by Alvin Kernan - who was the gunner on the Avenger that night - deals with this event in detail.)

Next came the F6F-3N, 205 of these built by the Grumman factory. The F6F-3N employed an improved radar, the APS-6. Installed in a bulbous pod on the starboard wing, the APS-6 was simple to operate (only six knobs), had a range of five miles, and weighed 250 pounds. It featured a double-dot system that displayed a shadow blip to the right of the true blip; this secondary blip showed the target's altitude relative to the F6F. The -3E's and -3N's deployed to the carriers in the Pacific in early 1944, but were difficult to integrate into carrier operations, as they essentially would have required round-the-clock duty by launch and recovery crews. Nonetheless, three Hellcat-equipped night squadrons (VF(N)-76, VF(N)-77, and VF(N)-7 served in the Pacific in 1944

[vikingBerserker]

But the P-38 was not until near the end of the war.

[davebender]

I'm aware of the P-70. However I suspect the program was not well resourced. IMO if the P-70 had received the resources which historically went to the P-61 it could have been a decent aircraft.

[Glider]

I am confident that with some imaginagtion and by withholding the temptation to load it with every goodie in town the Boston could have been converted into a decent nightfighter. Its perfromance was comparable with the Ju88C-6 which performed well in this role and it had the space and payload for the extra electronics.

The mk IV radar was quite small and was fitted to aircraft like the Defiant so space shouldn't have been a problem and the nose could house any guns with ease. It may not have been the best nightfighter in the world but one that perform well.

[tomo pauk]

Mounting the 1700 HP version of the R-2600 (one from B-25, or Avenger), while stripping some armor would've done good for ole A-20.

I'll venture to agree with people that say night fighting was not one of USAAC top priorities.

[Milosh]

Mounting the 1700 HP version of the R-2600 (one from B-25, or Avenger), while stripping some armor would've done good for ole A-20.

I'll venture to agree with people that say night fighting was not one of USAAC top priorities.

Fifty-nine P-70s, originally ordered as A-20s were completed with R-2600-11 engines as night fighters. These engines produced 1600hp.

[renrich]

The Corsair was used as a nightfighter in WW2 and Korea. The only Navy ace in Korea was a pilot, Bordeleon(sp?) flying a F4U5N nightfighter.

[davebender]

So was the Fw-190 but I'll hazard a guess that none of these single crew aircraft were terribly effective as night fighters. A dedicated radar operator was essential.

[tomo pauk]

Fifty-nine P-70s, originally ordered as A-20s were completed with R-2600-11 engines as night fighters. These engines produced 1600hp.

Yep, that's why I've said the 1700 HP ones would've came in nicely

[Shortround6]

Yep, that's why I've said the 1700 HP ones would've came in nicely

Many of them did have 1700hp engines. about 270 P-70s were made four basic types plus prototypes.

Part of the P-70s problem as a night fighter is timing. They weren't converted/used until spring/summer of 1942 and then trickled into combat. The 4 squadrons deployed to North Africa were re-equipped with Beaufighters before going into action. The squadron that deployed to Italy was re-equipped with P-61s in theater.
Some did fight in the Pacific but only started in Feb 1943.

What may have been great performance in the spring of 1941 over England may not have been good enough 2 years later.
Or having performance good enough to hunt down RAF heavies that were flying at a ridiculously low cruising speed (Ju-88C-6) may not have been good enough to catch 2 engine planes doing tip and run raids.