The Amerika bombers

MP-Willow · 07-07-2007, 01:43 PM

I should clear some things up. One, I was thinking of the Fw-200 in so mush as it was a start, all be it a poor start to a program that was utterly devistated by poor vision at the top. That is my opinion.

The second is the latter 4 engine bobers still had potential, but when they started to come on line, the Germans were lacking secure space to test and deploy them.

B-29 replacement, look at the B-52. As much as I like the B-36 and B-47, or the illfated B-70, the B-52 is what came out of all that. Only plane that two generations of pilots, same family even, can fly. You my disagree, but that is my pick

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-08-2007, 09:12 AM

The ultimate demise of the "Amerika Bomber" project was the fact that all bomber testing and production was put on hold for the emergency fighter program.

Cub Driver · 07-08-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hop

Do you know the route used, and what stops were made?

Aircraft had been flying to South America from Europe since the 1920s, stopping over at the Canaries and Cape Verde islands. The longest hop on that route is from the Cape Verde islands to Brazil, about 1600 - 1700 miles.

Given that Germany didn't control many Atlantic islands, it developed a rather stunning system whereby a refueling freighter was stationed en route. It would tow a large fiber mat which served the double purpose of calming the waves and providing a "tarmac" for the seaplane, which landed on the water and taxied onto the matting for refueling.

In theory, the tender could even have provided relief crews, but I don't think that was ever done.

The Centennial of Flight website claims that the planes were re-launched by catapult, but my recollection is otherwise: I thought they were flying boats, and that they took off as they had landed.

Quote:

On December 5, 1929, Germany launched an airmail route to compete with Aeropostale, flying mail from Germany, through Seville, Spain, to the port of Tenerife in the Canary Islands. German ships would pick up the seaplanes by crane, refuel them, then launch them again by catapult. On the other side of the Atlantic, other German fuel ships would sit at anchor. When the German airmail seaplanes landed near the ships, they would refuel and be launched again by catapult to fly into South America, where German immigrants had started continental airmail service

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Graeme · 07-09-2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hornet_Driver

Sanger's design was way too advanced for the time. He was seeking to put the aircraft into a low orbit, drop the payload in an arc from Pittsburgh and then push on through to the other side of the world to land in Germany.

This was Sanger's design.

MP-Willow · 07-10-2007, 03:12 PM

Cub Driver: The German Seaplanes could be lifted and relunched by catopult from the tenders. Look at this site: BV 138 flying boat of WWII for some pics of a Bv-138 with a tender.

Graeme · 07-10-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cub Driver

The Centennial of Flight website claims that the planes were re-launched by catapult, but my recollection is otherwise: I thought they were flying boats, and that they took off as they had landed.
Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Could also have been referring to the Blohm und Voss Ha 139. Designed for long-range trans-ocean operation by Lufthansa, they were capable of transporting a 500kg payload over 5000kg at a cruising speed of 250km/hr. Stressed for catapult launching and capable of taking-off from and alighting on rough water at a weight allowing sufficient fuel for 1000km. Regular trips were made from Azores to New York and they provided a South Atlantic service.

bigZ · 07-10-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

A Condor did not have the range to fly to the United States even one way. The Fw 200 had a ferry range of 4,440 km (2,760 mi) and that was loaded with fuel and no bomb. From France to the East Coast of the US is over 3000 mi. It would not make it.

Have to disagree:-

Fw 200 was the very first airplane to fly non-stop between Berlin and New York making the journey on August 10, 1938 in 24 hours and 56 minutes. The return trip on August 13 1938 took only 19 hours and 47 minutes.

Fw 200V1 was kitted out with auxilary fuel tanks enabling it to cover distances of 6000km.

Floyd Bennett Field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Attached is the best picture I could find of the FW200 at Floyd Bennett field.

Graeme · 07-10-2007, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigZ

Have to disagree:-

Fw 200 was the very first airplane to fly non-stop between Berlin and New York making the journey on August 10, 1938 in 24 hours and 56 minutes. The return trip on August 13 1938 took only 19 hours and 47 minutes.

Fw 200V1 was kitted out with auxilary fuel tanks enabling it to cover distances of 6000km.

I suspect that Adler is referring to the militarised Luftwaffe version. The civil 1938 version in the the record flights, as you described, was the clean 'unadulterated' version.
The typical civil Fw 200, as described in the 1938 Jane's, credits this version with having a 'normal range' of 775 miles.
"This could be extended to 1,180 miles with increased fuel capacity, 3,500 litres, and reduced payload of 5,170 lbs".

The Fw 200S (special) D-ACON Brandenburg that made those record flights, must have been a flying fuel tank with a useful payload of...?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-11-2007, 10:54 AM

Exactly. No Fw 200 with a bomb load is going to fly across the atlantic with landing to refuel.

bigZ · 07-11-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Exactly. No Fw 200 with a bomb load is going to fly across the atlantic with landing to refuel.

Perhaps they could have lobbed a few hand grenades out the window before ditching next to an awaiting U boat?

syscom3 · 07-11-2007, 01:22 PM

One thing to remember about those Amerika bombers.....

The B29's that got more than moderate damage over Japan had a hell of a time getting back to Iwo Jima safely, let alone the Mariana's.

And that was against the Japanese defenses that were hardly up to the task of intercepting the bombers or putting up punishing flak.

Now imagine the Amerika bombers going up against potential US defenses and watch the LW take group losses of 100% after a few missions.

The LW could not sustain more than a few missions per month against the US, just as the US could not sustain B36 missions against Europe.

Hornet_Driver · 07-13-2007, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

One thing to remember about those Amerika bombers.....

The B29's that got more than moderate damage over Japan had a hell of a time getting back to Iwo Jima safely, let alone the Mariana's.

And that was against the Japanese defenses that were hardly up to the task of intercepting the bombers or putting up punishing flak.

Now imagine the Amerika bombers going up against potential US defenses and watch the LW take group losses of 100% after a few missions.

The LW could not sustain more than a few missions per month against the US, just as the US could not sustain B36 missions against Europe.

From what I gathered, the LW had no intention of dipping below in altitude for any flak or air intercept over the Eastern Seaboard of the USA, nor was there any energy put into a massive high-altitude bombing campaign if the LW could ever get a successful long-range bomber design to carry the dirty bomb payload. Costs associated for such an endeavor (materials, especially and time) were the saviors of the Allies/USA. I think that if the war persisted, the LW may have pulled it off, especially with the Horten wing.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-13-2007, 09:21 AM

They may have pulled off one mission but you have to remember that if they had managed to bomb the east coast then the US would have put up so many massive amounts of AA and fighter protection. A second mission would have been impossible and Berlin would have been glowing...

MP-Willow · 07-13-2007, 01:55 PM

The German Air attacks may have gone better then we think. I have seen pictures of German U-boats off thee Atlantic City beaches and they were not being shot at, in daylight.

The US coastal deffence and patrols were at times lacking, but it would be one or two raids to get them to be like the Japanease. Also, one or two raids on New York or Boston, and you would have a slow time replacing things to England.

Graeme · 07-13-2007, 08:18 PM

Only one city on the American mainland was bombed during WWII. Boise City, Oklahoma, was "attacked" in July 1943 by a single U.S. Army Air Force plane on a bombing training mission. The aircraft-operating out of Dalhart, Texas-was to drop six 100-pound practice bombs (each carried four pounds of explosives) on a desolate bombing range. Instead, the pilot delivered his load on Boise City, 45 miles from the range. The bombs hit the Baptist Church and a garage. There were no casualties.