Anglo-Americans VS Soviets in Dogfight?

[timshatz]

As good an explanation as any.

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by JoeB

Gun camera photo's are cool. However they have a big weakness: the the "chain of custody" (as they'd say on the crime TV shows ) is often uncertain (where did it really come from when was it really shot). The coolness sometimes causes people to overlook that issue.

Also the "Generatinon Chain". We may be looking at a copy of a copy dubbed to VHS and then frames were exported, printed in a book and then scanned before being saved as a lossy jpeg!

Perhaps a nearly pristine version of the shots exist in an on-line archive.

[Udet]

Originally Posted by timshatz

"Zeiss"?

Definitely sounds like the comrades are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. More and more looking like Luftwaffe gun film (if even of American Aircraft).

"Zeiss"?! Jeez, that's just sloppy. From the Soviets, you'd expect it to be a little better.

Timsh...i am afraid i did not quite understand what you meant with that...

Yes, Zeiss, shown upside down on the film...

[timshatz]

Udet, was pointing to the "Zeiss" being German Equipment and the Soviets calling it a Russian Gun Cam. Yes, it is possible an odd camera landed in a Russian Ace's Lap (complete with film) and he used it on his aircraft. But it is more likely that the Soviets just captured some and called it one of their own and thought no-one would notice. The Soviets were famous for moving people in and out of historical pictures and monkeying with film.

While I might be out on a limb on this thing, I do not give the Comrades the benefit of the doubt. Ever. Don't trust the SOBs.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree.

[dreadnought]

the second set of pictures look similar to an me262

[Gnomey]

Not really

[Hermie]

Several years ago I read an account of this action in a book I had. It's been to long ago to give you the source but what you heard is pretty much what was in the book The P-38's were flying ground support and accidntly attacked the Russians who called in air support. A dogfight developed and at least one P-38 shot down a Russian. Supposedly the Russians wanted the American flight leader shot as they allegedly did theirs.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Hermie

Several years ago I read an account of this action in a book I had. It's been to long ago to give you the source but what you heard is pretty much what was in the book The P-38's were flying ground support and accidntly attacked the Russians who called in air support. A dogfight developed and at least one P-38 shot down a Russian. Supposedly the Russians wanted the American flight leader shot as they allegedly did theirs.

That incident definitely happened, in contrast to the Khozedhub friendly fire incidents which are fuzzier AFAIK. An appendix in Seidl "Stalin's Eagles" reproduces the 82nd FG's action report of the mission, and draft of apology letter by the 15th AF which seems to reflect information from the Soviets about the incident. The P-38's attacked a Soviet column advancing in Yugoslavia, November 7, 1944, killing a Soviet Lt. Gen among other casualties and damage. Yak-9's came to the aid of the column. One P-38 was downed immediately and another after the Americans realized their mistake and were trying to withdraw. Meantime the P-38's had claimed 2 Yak-9's destroyed, 2 probable and 1 damaged; Seidl names two Soviet pilots killed in the incident and one who parachuted.

The draft says the 82nd's commander had been relieved of command, but there's a hand written comment, "NO!" in the margin next to it. The Soviet flight leader was their 8th leading ace of the war, AI Koldunov, 46 victories. He claimed three of the four P-38's the Soviets thought they shot down. He definitely wasn't shot for it. He eventually became the chief of the Soviet air defence service, the PVO, in the 1980's. Interestingly though his career ended over another East-West incident: he was forced into retirement after the Mathias Rust incident in 1987 (the young German who managed to land his Cessna 172 in Red Square).

Joe

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by JoeB

That incident definitely happened, in contrast to the Khozedhub friendly fire incidents which are fuzzier AFAIK. An appendix in Seidl "Stalin's Eagles" reproduces the 82nd FG's action report of the mission, and draft of apology letter by the 15th AF which seems to reflect information from the Soviets about the incident. The P-38's attacked a Soviet column advancing in Yugoslavia, November 7, 1944, killing a Soviet Lt. Gen among other casualties and damage. Yak-9's came to the aid of the column. One P-38 was downed immediately and another after the Americans realized their mistake and were trying to withdraw. Meantime the P-38's had claimed 2 Yak-9's destroyed, 2 probable and 1 damaged; Seidl names two Soviet pilots killed in the incident and one who parachuted.

The draft says the 82nd's commander had been relieved of command, but there's a hand written comment, "NO!" in the margin next to it. The Soviet flight leader was their 8th leading ace of the war, AI Koldunov, 46 victories. He claimed three of the four P-38's the Soviets thought they shot down. He definitely wasn't shot for it. He eventually became the chief of the Soviet air defence service, the PVO, in the 1980's. Interestingly though his career ended over another East-West incident: he was forced into retirement after the Mathias Rust incident in 1987 (the young German who managed to land his Cessna 172 in Red Square).

Joe

Cool... Thanks..
I'd like to see this on "Dogfights"

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by comiso90

Cool... Thanks..
I'd like to see this on "Dogfights"

Yeah, that would be pretty cool.

[Hermie]

That makes more sense but as I said I read it quite a while ago. It would make a great Dogfights show. The one tonight is hardly about dogfights. The attack on Japanese fleet units was hardly a dogfight.

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by Hermie

That makes more sense but as I said I read it quite a while ago. It would make a great Dogfights show. The one tonight is hardly about dogfights. The attack on Japanese fleet units was hardly a dogfight.

yeah... what are they doing? .. the last one was on the Bismark. They are looseing their focus. The writers need to consult this site!

[lesofprimus]

I have to agree fellas, Im alittle let down by this show.... There are so very many well documented dogfights throughout WW2 and theyre talking about sinking ships...

They also use the same digital scene of a certain plane numerous times...

I still like watching it tho...

[comiso90]

U gotta love the camera shakes and sfx... I'll buy the DVD set when available.
... as long as they lay off the naval engagements..

There should be a "sticky thread" dedicated to the show.