Anglo-Americans VS Soviets in Dogfight? - Aircraft of World War II

comiso90 · 02-07-2007, 08:31 PM

Years ago, I read an account in which some P-38s were flying ground support for Russian troops around the Elbe. The "Front" shifted and apparently the American planes inadvertently attacked Russian troops.

YAKs were called in and a large dogfight ensued.

Has anyone else heard of this? I've worn out Google looking.

I'd like to read about other engagements when Yanks and Brits tangled with Ruskies in WW2. There has to be a few instances. It's not difficult to imagine that a western front combatant may not be familiar with eastern Front equipment.

Thanks

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 02-08-2007, 09:46 AM

We had a thread here that talked about that. I will have to see if I can try and find it.

comiso90 · 02-08-2007, 10:40 AM

thanks for the effort

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 02-08-2007, 10:48 AM

I believe it was posted in this thread here. The title and most of the thread have to do with the RAF and VVS but it branches out and also talks about the subject you are interested in.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...-raf-1386.html (VVS Vs. RAF)

lesofprimus · 02-08-2007, 10:32 PM

Supposedly, Ivan Kozhedub shot down 2 P-51 Mustangs, but the evidence is scarce, and the so-called "gun camera" footage has in some circles, been branded unverifiable..

Copied from Pilots Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub.

During WWII, Ivan Kozhedub flew 326 combat missions, took part in 126 aerial combats, and achieved 62 kills (in them 22 FW 190 and 18 Ju 87).
Apart from these 62 victories, Ivan Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two U.S. P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7 on one occasion. Both these P-51 losses have been verified by USAAF sources.

timshatz · 02-09-2007, 09:36 AM

Agree with you the gun cams are sketchy. First one doesn't prove anything. Good shots of what looks to be a P51 turning followed by an explosion. Would need to see the shots after the explosion to confirm they are from the same film.

Second one shows a P51. Definitely. But it still has drop tanks. Never heard of a P51 going into a fight intentionally with drop tanks on. Heard of them getting jumped that way, but not going into a fight that way. One would think Ivan got jumped and downed the 51s in self defense. Secondly, I am not sure the aircraft is a P51 or an F51. Same aircraft but different time periods. In short, do not know when the shots were taken. The 51 looks like both a late WW2 and Korean war aircraft. Anybody want to chime in on this?

Lastly, I did not know the Russians carried gun films. Thought that did not happen until the Jet period. Again, Anybody know about that and can contribute?

comiso90 · 02-09-2007, 01:01 PM

One way to bring out detail is to adjust the levels and sharpen the pixels. It looks like it has a radial engine to me and the the wings look different.

I'm not familiar with that mustang variation..... LOL..

Bottom line is that there isn't much information to draw from but it doesn't look like a mustang in these shots... P-47?

timshatz · 02-09-2007, 01:24 PM

It does look like a radial. Short nosed one at that. Something like a P-36 or Lagg 5.

Not enough detail to be sure about anything.

comiso90 · 02-09-2007, 01:32 PM

If i had to guess on the markings, I'd say American

Gnomey · 02-09-2007, 02:01 PM

The first one certainly doesn't look like a P-51 or like a P-47 but the second series the aircraft is almost certainly a P-51.

comiso90 · 02-09-2007, 02:20 PM

cu of first series

Udet · 02-09-2007, 03:04 PM

As i have always said since first seeing the photos a while ago...

I am with Tim regarding the first shots...besides showing a plane that can not be identified the film is meaningless.

The secong one not 100% isure if the thing is a Mustang though...but it´s either a P-51 B...razorback; does not look like P-51 D with the bubble canopy there but who knows...or another case of more soviet major prime bit time hand picked crap.

Has anyone noticed the "Zeiss" word on the film?

timshatz · 02-09-2007, 04:05 PM

"Zeiss"?

Definitely sounds like the comrades are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. More and more looking like Luftwaffe gun film (if even of American Aircraft).

"Zeiss"?! Jeez, that's just sloppy. From the Soviets, you'd expect it to be a little better.

Glider · 02-09-2007, 04:33 PM

Silly question but I have never seen any gun camera film from a Russian WW2 fighter, does anyone know if they were fitted with them?

JoeB · 02-09-2007, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

As i have always said since first seeing the photos a while ago...

Has anyone noticed the "Zeiss" word on the film?

Always funny as that film comes up on various fora, how long it takes for somebody to ask that.

Gun camera photo's are cool. However they have a big weakness: the "chain of custody" (as they'd say on the crime TV shows

) is often uncertain (where did it really come from when was it really shot). The coolness sometimes causes people to overlook that issue.

I would like to know according to what source Kozedhub *himself* claimed to have downed P-51's, a source I hope very close to an original one, like a combat report in Russian archives, before talking about gc films.

A possible explanation of that film IMHO is that Kozhedhub obtained a German film at some point right after the war, as a souvenir, never having himself claimed that it showed an a/c downed by him in a friendly fire incident (whether or not, as a separate issue, he really had such an incident). Then eventually somebody got it from his family and put it together with that story. Or perhaps the film has no relation to Kozhedhub at all. It certainly doesn't document anything by itself, looks cool though.

Joe

02-07-2007, 08:31 PM	#1
comiso90 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: FL Posts: 3,097	Anglo-Americans VS Soviets in Dogfight? Years ago, I read an account in which some P-38s were flying ground support for Russian troops around the Elbe. The "Front" shifted and apparently the American planes inadvertently attacked Russian troops. YAKs were called in and a large dogfight ensued. Has anyone else heard of this? I've worn out Google looking. I'd like to read about other engagements when Yanks and Brits tangled with Ruskies in WW2. There has to be a few instances. It's not difficult to imagine that a western front combatant may not be familiar with eastern Front equipment. Thanks Last edited by comiso90; 02-07-2007 at 08:34 PM.

02-08-2007, 09:46 AM	#2
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 31,700	We had a thread here that talked about that. I will have to see if I can try and find it. __________________ fly boy said: "isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" syscom3 said: "In fact, UAVs are probably far safer than manned aircraft because they are always aware of whats going on and not distracted by things like coffee being spilled on a lap or "whys this light off, is the light bulb burned out?"

02-08-2007, 10:48 AM	#4
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 31,700	I believe it was posted in this thread here. The title and most of the thread have to do with the RAF and VVS but it branches out and also talks about the subject you are interested in. http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...-raf-1386.html (VVS Vs. RAF) __________________ fly boy said: "isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" syscom3 said: "In fact, UAVs are probably far safer than manned aircraft because they are always aware of whats going on and not distracted by things like coffee being spilled on a lap or "whys this light off, is the light bulb burned out?"

02-09-2007, 02:01 PM	#10
Gnomey World Traveller Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Royal Deeside/St Andrews, Scotland, UK Posts: 14,036	The first one certainly doesn't look like a P-51 or like a P-47 but the second series the aircraft is almost certainly a P-51. __________________ "Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts" Sir Winston Churchill "To him the People of the World Largely owe the Freedom and Liberties they Enjoy Today" Enscription on Hugh Dowding's (AOC Fighter Command 1936-40) statue in London WW2 Talk: A WW2 Discussion Forum My Photo Collections on Flickr

02-09-2007, 03:04 PM	#12
Udet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,258	As i have always said since first seeing the photos a while ago... I am with Tim regarding the first shots...besides showing a plane that can not be identified the film is meaningless. The secong one not 100% isure if the thing is a Mustang though...but it´s either a P-51 B...razorback; does not look like P-51 D with the bubble canopy there but who knows...or another case of more soviet major prime bit time hand picked crap. Has anyone noticed the "Zeiss" word on the film? __________________ In a national survey, 92% of the French people believed they are not ugly: 93% of them were wrong.

02-08-2007, 10:40 AM	#3
comiso90 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: FL Posts: 3,097	thanks for the effort

02-09-2007, 09:36 AM	#6
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,184	Agree with you the gun cams are sketchy. First one doesn't prove anything. Good shots of what looks to be a P51 turning followed by an explosion. Would need to see the shots after the explosion to confirm they are from the same film. Second one shows a P51. Definitely. But it still has drop tanks. Never heard of a P51 going into a fight intentionally with drop tanks on. Heard of them getting jumped that way, but not going into a fight that way. One would think Ivan got jumped and downed the 51s in self defense. Secondly, I am not sure the aircraft is a P51 or an F51. Same aircraft but different time periods. In short, do not know when the shots were taken. The 51 looks like both a late WW2 and Korean war aircraft. Anybody want to chime in on this? Lastly, I did not know the Russians carried gun films. Thought that did not happen until the Jet period. Again, Anybody know about that and can contribute?

02-09-2007, 01:24 PM	#8
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,184	It does look like a radial. Short nosed one at that. Something like a P-36 or Lagg 5. Not enough detail to be sure about anything.

02-09-2007, 01:32 PM	#9
comiso90 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: FL Posts: 3,097	If i had to guess on the markings, I'd say American

02-09-2007, 04:05 PM	#13
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,184	"Zeiss"? Definitely sounds like the comrades are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. More and more looking like Luftwaffe gun film (if even of American Aircraft). "Zeiss"?! Jeez, that's just sloppy. From the Soviets, you'd expect it to be a little better.

02-09-2007, 04:33 PM	#14
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 3,394	Silly question but I have never seen any gun camera film from a Russian WW2 fighter, does anyone know if they were fitted with them?

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