B-29s over Germany

[Soren]

Absolutely possible, but my point is that at 900 km/h the speed advantage enjoyed by the Ta-152 would be enormous compared to its intended victims below.

[Erich]

remember the old addage about P-51's loitering around airfields on landing aka Me 262's. The same would of happened to the TA 152 staffeln/gruppen. The Allied presence was just too strong

[red admiral]

Absolutely possible, but my point is that at 900 km/h the speed advantage enjoyed by the Ta-152 would be enormous compared to its intended victims below.

Re 2005s over Italy did this quite often. There was minimal buffeting up to 980kph, probably possible for 1000kph+. Attacks on B-17s below. Escorting P-39s had no chance of engaging them.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by red admiral

Re 2005s over Italy did this quite often. There was minimal buffeting up to 980kph, probably possible for 1000kph+. Attacks on B-17s below. Escorting P-39s had no chance of engaging them.

I doubt they had no buffetting at those speeds. 600 mph is high in the sub-mach range to begin with, and the airflow over the wings would have been near sonic.

The airspeed indicators of those years were quite unreliable at speeds high in the mach range. If a pilot said his airspeed indicator said 600 mph in a dive, then it was an inaccurate reading.

[red admiral]

http://www.aldini.it/re2005/980km-h1.JPG

Re 2005 flown by Commander de Prato on tests over Guidonia reached 980kph "without problems"

[Jank]

The P-47N, as the preferred escort for the B-29, could have accompanied the B-29 to Europe as well. It's increased fuel capacity over the "D" model was via fuel cells that did not have to be used where the needed range was far less. Unused fuel cells are not subject to the problems associated with unused capacity of standard fuel tanks.

The P-47N without all that extra fuel weight would be like a slightly heavier "M" model with larger squared off wings that provided even better roll performance.

At 30-40,000ft, it would be a very fast ship, especially in a dive, with great roll rate and tremendous firepower.

[Dogwalker]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The airspeed indicators of those years were quite unreliable at speeds high in the mach range. If a pilot said his airspeed indicator said 600 mph in a dive, then it was an inaccurate reading.

The 980 Km/h dive was obtained in the first day of trhee days of dives performed by Commander de Prato in a single pre-production fighter (MM096105) to test the modifications made to the tail section of the aircraft after aeroelastic problems were reported by the operative pilots in the pre-production aircrafts.
During the last day, he reached 988 Km/h.
These are not speed indicated by the onboard instruments, but corrected by the Reggiane and RA staff. An accurate test was reputed indispensable, since they were testing major modifications of the structure after a problem was reported.
The speed of 980 Km/h in dive was reached by a C.205 in a test too, but the Macchi C.202-205 pilots had to adjust the trimmer first to pass 750 Km/h to mantain the dive controllable. Otherwise, resonance effects will block the trimmer and the dive became incontrollable.
The same problem there was in the first two prototypes of Re.2005, but was fixed with some modifications in the pre-production aircrafts, so, the trimmer of Re.2005 was adjustable at every speed.
De Prato stated that the aircraft was fairly controllable, but that it was better that the pilots didn't try to perform "panic manuvers" at that speed, since thoose could damage the tail section after the modification too.
The C.202 was tested at 930 Km/h (it had to do, since the RA, up to 1942, requires from fighters a controllable dive speed of 1,55 times the maximum levelled speed to be accepted). One of the prototypes lost the tailplane during the tests, so, the tailplane of the production aircrafts was modified to sustain that speed.
Don'know the maximum speed reached by G55, but Gabrielli reported that Kurt Tank itself reached 900+ km/h testing the aircraft (this was an onboard indicated airspeed, since the german designer never said the type of tests he want to perform), and said to him that he was very pleased to notice that there weren't shakings at that speed.
However, 900+ Km/h was probably nothing ecceptional for G55, since the elder G50 was tested at 850 Km/h without problems.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Either way as many people have posted here, the Germans would not have been able to muster eneogh Ta-152s to put into the air to counter a large B-29 force and they been able to the Allied Fighters were swarming over German territory and would have chewed them up just due to there larger advantage in numbers.

[Dogwalker]

This is sure.
With the numerical superiority they had at the time the TA 152 came in service, the allies could switch even to the Gladiator as main fighter, and probably the result should be tha same.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

What about our own Shooting Star? Could it have done tolerable as an escort fighter? Perhaps if it hadn't killed two good fighter pilots the allies would have been more enthusiastic about it.

[syscom3]

The P80 wasnt going to be combat ready untill summer 1945. The war was over by then.

As I mentioned before, once the US and Brits were on the ground in France, the clock was ticking for Germany. The B29's could have been flying their missions in the summer of 1944, and germany had to stop them with what they had available.

The Luftwaffe didnt have the fighters necessary to take them on untill late in the war when they would be of too little quantity flown by too few pilots of skill.

When Le May took over the B-29 force in the Pacific he found that bombing results from 30,000ft to be very poor, crews were exhausted flying at such heights, the Jet Stream caused enormous difficulties in formation flying and targetting and the bomb load greatly reduced to allow for fuel.

Hence he changed to operation to mid altitude night bombing.

Now the Generals running the 8th in England probably would not have been so flexible. So if daylight raids continued using the B-29 the Jet Stream would have caused as many problems over Europe as over Japan. Bombing results would also have (probably) been worse, given the greater cloud cover at 30,000ft over Europe.

On the plus side the Luftwaffe would have found it extremely difficult in intercepting the B-29 force at 30,000ft travelling at 350mph. Not only would intercept times be much shorter, but time to climb to such high altitude would have used so much more fuel. In addition the computer controlled guns on the B-29 were far more accurate than those of the manned ones on the B-17 and B-24. The German flak would have been impotent at that altitude. And of the current Luftwaffe fighters only the Fw 190D and Ta 152 had the performance to fight at such high altitudes. Not sure about the Me 262. The Me 109 fighter force would have struggled to make more than one pass at such heights.

To be sure a B-29 force operating over Europe would have lost more than the 350 B-29's lost over Japan, but certainly the losses would have been much less than the 6,000 odd B-17 and B-24 bombers lost over Europe.

[DaveB.inVa]

Originally Posted by PipsPriller

Now the Generals running the 8th in England probably would not have been so flexible. So if daylight raids continued using the B-29 the Jet Stream would have caused as many problems over Europe as over Japan. Bombing results would also have (probably) been worse, given the greater cloud cover at 30,000ft over Europe.

Youve got to remember that the Jet Stream wasnt exactly a phenomina observed over Europe... it was over Japan. The jet stream argument is not really founded because bombers of the time were capable and did operate in the altitude where the jet stream was found... except in Europe it just wasnt present.

Originally Posted by PipsPriller

On the plus side the Luftwaffe would have found it extremely difficult in intercepting the B-29 force at 30,000ft travelling at 350mph. Not only would intercept times be much shorter, but time to climb to such high altitude would have used so much more fuel.

Most likely B-29s would be traveling at cruise. In the Pacific this was about 220 mph

[Erich]

backing up 2 postings; the Bf 109G-6/AS with MW 50 could fly over 35,000 ft and it was the result of wishes for a Höhenjäger against the P-51 in April of 44. The AS G-6 served till fall of 44 to be replaced by other G's, the G-10 being the fastest, so yes the 109 could kill a B-29 if needed.

you also forget the increased altitude performance of 128mm guns; no US or RAF bomber get get above the range of this very lethal wepaon in single or Zwilling mounts . . . .

Originally Posted by DaveB.inVa

Youve got to remember that the Jet Stream wasnt exactly a phenomina observed over Europe... it was over Japan. The jet stream argument is not really founded because bombers of the time were capable and did operate in the altitude where the jet stream was found... except in Europe it just wasnt present.

The only reason why it wasn't an observed phenomenona in Europe was because the bombers used in that Theatre ie B-17 and B-24, could not operate at those heights.

The Jet Stream did exist over Europe, it's known by the term 'Polar-front Jet Stream'. Like jet streams world wide it flows from west to east, with speeds ranging from 75mph to 295mph, dependant on time of year (winter is worst than summer) and height. Speeds of 150mph are commonly found at heights of 30,000ft plus - the day operating height of B-29's.

The following site gives an excellent diagramme of the Jet Stream flow over Europe. http://www.wunderground.com/global/EU_2xJT_Index.html

Originally Posted by DaveB.inVa

Most likely B-29s would be traveling at cruise. In the Pacific this was about 220 mph

I should have mentioned that the 350mph is IAS, not TAS.