B-29's versus Luftwaffe - Page 5 - Aircraft of World War II

Soren · 01-09-2009, 10:12 AM

Hitler certainly knew nothing of it Bill, and neither did the German a/c designers. Maybe the Abwehr did, but there is no proof they did, you're just speculating.

But lets assume the Germans did know about it, they apparently then weren't very concerned about it as it probably seemed it wasn't going to be in the ETO any time soon.

FLYBOYJ · 01-09-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgondog

See above - if you are correct, as hard as it is to believe, then the German intelligence teams in US and UK and Middle East were totally clueless. Most of us do not hold that opinion.

Now, here is the reality. 8th AF made a decison in early 1944 that bringing in B-29s were more disruptive than potentially beneficial - primarily because extensive work needed to be accomplished to lengthen runways and modify service depots and base hangers to take the B-29.. not to mention Wing size deployment was not feasible until summer 1944 at the earliest.

It was agreed that deployment to ETO would start in spring 1945 if needed... and even that decision was recinded in fall 1944.

Well put Bill - I was going to mention that B-29 deployed to the UK - I remember seeing a photo of it and if I remember correctly the entire aircraft was painted OD. Does any one else have info on this?

Soren · 01-09-2009, 10:56 AM

So let me get this straight. There are people here now that are of the opinion that the Abwehr had fully infiltrated the British & US military intelligence while at the same time others say that the British had all Abwehr agents in the UK captured and knew where every single one in the US was ?? I've argued against this before.

syscom3 · 01-09-2009, 10:58 AM

The Germans were not clueless about the B29, because the AAF had publicized it as early as 1942.

Plus the B29's were bombing Japan in middle 1944 and they would have told the Germans about it.

FLYBOYJ · 01-09-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

The Germans were not clueless about the B29, because the AAF had publicized it as early as 1942.

Plus the B29's were bombing Japan in middle 1944 and they would have told the Germans about it.

I'm sure Germany had an Embassy in Tokyo........

Erich · 01-09-2009, 11:09 AM

most likely the higher LW intel knew of the remote possibilities of the B-29 onboard 8th or 15th AF command, but the average Hans pilot flying single and twin engine bomber destroyer missions knew nothing - that is my point, there was obviously nothing done in a hurried up program to face what was to come, although numerous failed experimentation was to be selected to try and build up moral in the doomed LW pilot cadre and for the sake of the German civilian population.

guys we are argueing ourselves into the ground with another what-if. Let's be real had the B-29 come onboard in the ETO it would further inflicted the carnage on the ground, would of it quicken the fall of the Reich who knows

drgondog · 01-09-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

most likely the higher LW intel knew of the remote possibilities of the B-29 onboard 8th or 15th AF command, but the average Hans pilot flying single and twin engine bomber destroyer missions knew nothing - that is my point, there was obviously nothing done in a hurried up program to face what was to come, although numerous failed experimentation was to be selected to try and build up moral in the doomed LW pilot cadre and for the sake of the German civilian population.

guys we are argueing ourselves into the ground with another what-if. Let's be real had the B-29 come onboard in the ETO it would further inflicted the carnage on the ground, would of it quicken the fall of the Reich who knows

I would say this sums it up pretty well.

FLYBOYJ · 01-09-2009, 11:17 AM

agree...........

drgondog · 01-09-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

So let me get this straight. There are people here now that are of the opinion that the Abwehr had fully infiltrated the British & US military intelligence while at the same time others say that the British had all Abwehr agents in the UK captured and knew where every single one in the US was ?? I've argued against this before.

No - that is not what is being said.

A casual stroll with camera in hand in the countryside near the airfields I just talked about, plus the ability to follow a new and very large moving four engine bomber with said camera, and a means to develop and smuggle film was not above Abwehr abilities.

Cutting out Life Magazine articles and smuggling those to Mexico was similarly in the Abwehr's bag of tricks.

ZERO infiltration required.

It is just not plausible that Hitler was not aware of it, ditto for Fatso. Lack of concern or disinclination to re setting priorities is also plausible...

As Erich said, it is a null argument as it didn't come to 8th AF during WWII.

drgondog · 01-09-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Well put Bill - I was going to mention that B-29 deployed to the UK - I remember seeing a photo of it and if I remember correctly the entire aircraft was painted OD. Does any one else have info on this?

pg 205 The Mighty Eighth War Manual by Freeman shows the 29 at Glatton on March 11, 1944. OD with gray bottom.

FLYBOYJ · 01-09-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgondog

pg 205 The Mighty Eighth War Manual by Freeman shows the 29 at Glatton on March 11, 1944. OD with gray bottom.

Thanks!

Soren · 01-09-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgondog

No - that is not what is being said.

A casual stroll with camera in hand in the countryside near the airfields I just talked about, plus the ability to follow a new and very large moving four engine bomber with said camera, and a means to develop and smuggle film was not above Abwehr abilities.

Cutting out Life Magazine articles and smuggling those to Mexico was similarly in the Abwehr's bag of tricks.

ZERO infiltration required.

Oh I don't doubt the ability of the Abwehr Bill, they had some of the best trained agents in the world and they knew about most new upcoming Allied a/c designs having fully infiltrated the US a/c industry, but I just see two conflicting arguments thats all.

The point however is that the B-29 wasn't seen as making it to the ETO by the Germans at any rate, and no a/c designers knew anything about it, and it even seems Hitler & Goering were also uninformed. The Abwehr had a lots of classified material not known of by the Führer.

drgondog · 01-09-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

Oh I don't doubt the ability of the Abwehr Bill, they had some of the best trained agents in the world and they knew about most new upcoming Allied a/c designs having fully infiltrated the US a/c industry, but I just see two conflicting arguments thats all.

Then we can safel now assume they knew all about the B-29.

The point however is that the B-29 wasn't seen as making it to the ETO by the Germans at any rate, and no a/c designers knew anything about it, and it even seems Hitler & Goering were also uninformed. The Abwehr had a lots of classified material not known of by the Führer.

And you know this how?

delcyros · 01-09-2009, 01:39 PM

I think we have reached a point in the discussion where two things are matched together:
One aspect: The significant superiority of P-47/P-51 operating at high altitude in the fighter role.
The other: The B-29 beeing able to defend itselfe by high cruise alt / cruise speed and superior self defense.

I agree with the first but do question the second aspect. The Luftwaffe was able to deal with the B-17 / B-24 but it was not able to deal with the escorts in the same place.
I have seen little to convince me that the B-29 would change anything here. It would have been as vulnarable to Fw-190 in a head on firing pass as was the B-24.
The Luftwaffe get´s beaten as historically or even more while the devastation on the ground is likely beeing larger but less precise and efficient.
You likely would see a change in production priorities from G-6 to GM-1 boosted Bf-109G5 high altitude fighters and maybe some Bf-109H-1 beeing converted from -G5 airframes as an interim measure long before the advent of the Ta-152H (they have been operationally tested in France 1944, while production was to begin in mid 1944 before beeing cancelled in favour to lower alt variants).
Is the P-51B/D really that superior to an GM-1 boosted Bf-109G5 or Bf-109h?

Marcel · 01-09-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

Hitler certainly knew nothing of it Bill, and neither did the German a/c designers. Maybe the Abwehr did, but there is no proof they did, you're just speculating.

But lets assume the Germans did know about it, they apparently then weren't very concerned about it as it probably seemed it wasn't going to be in the ETO any time soon.

Dutch aviation enthousiasts were better then the German Intelligence:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcel

I find that difficult to believe Soren. They must have known. I have a simple Dutch book about aviation, printed in 1943. It does describe the B29. Remember it was written in occupied country. How could this writer know and the German authorities not? Could it be that hey knew about it and ignored the info?

01-09-2009, 10:58 AM	#64
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,809	The Germans were not clueless about the B29, because the AAF had publicized it as early as 1942. Plus the B29's were bombing Japan in middle 1944 and they would have told the Germans about it. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

01-09-2009, 11:09 AM	#66
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,107	most likely the higher LW intel knew of the remote possibilities of the B-29 onboard 8th or 15th AF command, but the average Hans pilot flying single and twin engine bomber destroyer missions knew nothing - that is my point, there was obviously nothing done in a hurried up program to face what was to come, although numerous failed experimentation was to be selected to try and build up moral in the doomed LW pilot cadre and for the sake of the German civilian population. guys we are argueing ourselves into the ground with another what-if. Let's be real had the B-29 come onboard in the ETO it would further inflicted the carnage on the ground, would of it quicken the fall of the Reich who knows __________________ Rip it up !

01-09-2009, 11:17 AM	#68
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,861	agree........... __________________ > I Support Doug Gillis <

01-09-2009, 01:39 PM	#74
delcyros Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg) Posts: 1,753	I think we have reached a point in the discussion where two things are matched together: One aspect: The significant superiority of P-47/P-51 operating at high altitude in the fighter role. The other: The B-29 beeing able to defend itselfe by high cruise alt / cruise speed and superior self defense. I agree with the first but do question the second aspect. The Luftwaffe was able to deal with the B-17 / B-24 but it was not able to deal with the escorts in the same place. I have seen little to convince me that the B-29 would change anything here. It would have been as vulnarable to Fw-190 in a head on firing pass as was the B-24. The Luftwaffe get´s beaten as historically or even more while the devastation on the ground is likely beeing larger but less precise and efficient. You likely would see a change in production priorities from G-6 to GM-1 boosted Bf-109G5 high altitude fighters and maybe some Bf-109H-1 beeing converted from -G5 airframes as an interim measure long before the advent of the Ta-152H (they have been operationally tested in France 1944, while production was to begin in mid 1944 before beeing cancelled in favour to lower alt variants). Is the P-51B/D really that superior to an GM-1 boosted Bf-109G5 or Bf-109h? __________________ ---delcyros---

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01-09-2009, 10:12 AM	#61
Soren Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,625	Hitler certainly knew nothing of it Bill, and neither did the German a/c designers. Maybe the Abwehr did, but there is no proof they did, you're just speculating. But lets assume the Germans did know about it, they apparently then weren't very concerned about it as it probably seemed it wasn't going to be in the ETO any time soon.

01-09-2009, 10:56 AM	#63
Soren Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,625	So let me get this straight. There are people here now that are of the opinion that the Abwehr had fully infiltrated the British & US military intelligence while at the same time others say that the British had all Abwehr agents in the UK captured and knew where every single one in the US was ?? I've argued against this before.