Best aircraft manufacturer - Aircraft of World War II

renrich · 02-13-2009, 01:17 PM

It has been a little more than 100 years since the advent of powered flight. During that time, enormous strides have been made by numerous individuals and manufacturers of aircraft. Which designer, developer and manufacturer, past and present has contributed most, to push the envelope, since the Wright Brothers, to the progress of flight?

SoD Stitch · 02-13-2009, 01:29 PM

Well, this has sort of already been dealt with in another thread, but I'm gonna stick with my original answer: Lockheed. From 1935 to the present, they have been at the forefront of aviation design and technology, and have designed and built some of the most enigmatic aircraft in history, including (but not limited to) the P-38 Lightning, P/F-80 Shooting Star, F-104 Starfighter, U-2/TR-1 Dragon Lady, A-12, SR-71 Blackbird, F-22 Raptor, to name just a few.

Nightwitch · 02-13-2009, 01:39 PM

If you include Jumo, then I might venture to say Junkers. They developed the first all-metal aircraft, the first cantilever wing monoplane, and the first jet engine that was viable for mass production. They haven't done much since the second world war, but their achievements from WWI to the end of WWII were pretty substantial.

renrich · 02-13-2009, 01:54 PM

Sorry, I did not realise the other thread had been started. That thread deals with mostly WW2 and this one is supposed to be for the whole history of flight but if the mods want to close this one because it duplicates the other, it is fine by me. In the meantime, I would vote possibly for Lockheed. They had a series of AC such as Grama and Sirius and then Electra, that pushed the envelope in the 20s and 30s. Then the Hudson, P38, Constellation, our first successful jet fighter, P80, F104 and SR71, C130. Did they build the spy plane gary Powers was shot down in? Pretty impressive.

syscom3 · 02-13-2009, 02:08 PM

Boeing.

B17, B29, B47, B52, 707, 727, 737, 747, 777 and soon the 787.

Now who can top that?

renrich · 02-13-2009, 03:01 PM

Don't forget the Boeing Bipes and the airliner that competed with the DC3 and the Stratoliner and the Clipper.

syscom3 · 02-13-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renrich

Don't forget the Boeing Bipes and the airliner that competed with the DC3 and the Stratoliner and the Clipper.

I wouldnt exactly say those were ground breaking designs.

The B17, B29, B47, 707, and 747's definatly set the standards and advanced aeronautics in one way or another.

FLYBOYJ · 02-13-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

Boeing.

B17, B29, B47, B52, 707, 727, 737, 747, 777 and soon the 787.

Now who can top that?

Electra, Hudson, P-38, F-80, F-104, U-2, SR-71, C-130, P-3, C-5, F-117A and now F-22 and F-35

SoD Stitch · 02-13-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Electra, Hudson, P-38, F-80, F-104, U-2, SR-71, C-130, P-3, C-5, F-117A and now F-22 and F-35

Hear, hear!

And don't forget the Vega and the Constellation, probably the most beautiful airliner ever built!

syscom3 · 02-13-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Electra, Hudson, P-38, F-80, F-104, U-2, SR-71, C-130, P-3, C-5, F-117A and now F-22 and F-35

Great aircraft, but aside from the P80, did they really chnage aviation tot he degree the Boeing products did? The U2, SR71 and F117 are limited edition designs that were not in mass production. Although it advanced aviation technology, it didnt change history to the degree the Boeings did.

The C130 is just an improvment on the C123 and C119.

The P3 is just an improvement of the PB4Y and PV2.

F104 accomplished just exactly what?

The P38 pushed the art of the interceptors, but was it ground breaking?

The C5 besides being big, also was just an improvment of existing designs.

B17: First long range heavy bomber in the world which pushed the state of the art for the time and made America the undisputed leader in large multi-engined aircraft.
B29: A generational improvement of the B17, and the first to be designed, financed and built to a whole new way of doing business.
B47: All jets (in pods) and swept wing gave Boeing the leg up on everyone and this led directly to the 707.
707: I dont have to say much about this as its already recognized as among the most important jets in history.
737: Best selling jet in history. Brought commercial jets to the smaller airports.
747: Again, a legendary jet that redefined international air transport.

FLYBOYJ · 02-13-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

Great aircraft, but aside from the P80, did they really chnage aviation tot he degree the Boeing products did?

Yes and in some cases more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

The U2, SR71 and F117 are limited edition designs that were not in mass production.

So?

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

Although it advanced aviation technology, it didnt change history to the degree the Boeings did.

Maybe the military aircraft, 707 and 747. All the rest were very good commercial aircraft, quite conventional in construction but nothing ground breaking with regards to new construction technology or systems

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

The C130 is just an improvment on the C123 and C119.

That a laugh - have you ever seen the pilots handbooks for all 3 aircraft and compare the difference in performance. Don't let a C-130 FE hear you say that, he'll smak you with his helmet bag (of course the helmet would be in it!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

The P3 is just an improvement of the PB4Y and PV2.

Wrong again - have you ever been inside all 3 or looked at their systems and performance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

F104 accomplished just exactly what?

Starfighters F-104 Demo Team - Aircraft Records

Let alone it was the main strike and interceptor aircraft for most of NATO from the 60s into the 1980s

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

The P38 pushed the art of the interceptors, but was it ground breaking?

Absolutely

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

The C5 besides being big, also was just an improvment of existing designs.

Name one, oh wait, the 747x which it beat out twice for USAF contracts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

B17: First long range heavy bomber in the world which pushed the state of the art for the time and made America the undisputed leader in large multi-engined aircraft.
B29: A generational improvement of the B17, and the first to be designed, financed and built to a whole new way of doing business.
B47: All jets (in pods) and swept wing gave Boeing the leg up on everyone and this led directly to the 707.
707: I dont have to say much about this as its already recognized as among the most important jets in history.

Agree with all

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

737: Best selling jet in history. Brought commercial jets to the smaller airports.

True but nothing special and now being replaced in masses by the a320

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

747: Again, a legendary jet that redefined international air transport.

And I could agree with that

Nightwitch · 02-13-2009, 04:22 PM

The B-17 didn't push the envelope in bomber development as much as the Martin B-10. The B-10 had closed cockpits, rotating gun turrets, and good speed in an all-metal monoplane design. It was really the innovation that led to the B-17.

FLYBOYJ · 02-13-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwitch

The B-17 didn't push the envelope in bomber development as much as the Martin B-10. The B-10 had closed cockpits, rotating gun turrets, and good speed in an all-metal monoplane design. It was really the innovation that led to the B-17.

Good points

drgondog · 02-13-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

Great aircraft, but aside from the P80, did they really chnage aviation tot he degree the Boeing products did? The U2, SR71 and F117 are limited edition designs that were not in mass production. Although it advanced aviation technology, it didnt change history to the degree the Boeings did.

The C130 is just an improvment on the C123 and C119.

The P3 is just an improvement of the PB4Y and PV2.

F104 accomplished just exactly what?

The P38 pushed the art of the interceptors, but was it ground breaking?

The C5 besides being big, also was just an improvment of existing designs.

B17: First long range heavy bomber in the world which pushed the state of the art for the time and made America the undisputed leader in large multi-engined aircraft.
B29: A generational improvement of the B17, and the first to be designed, financed and built to a whole new way of doing business.
B47: All jets (in pods) and swept wing gave Boeing the leg up on everyone and this led directly to the 707.
707: I dont have to say much about this as its already recognized as among the most important jets in history.
737: Best selling jet in history. Brought commercial jets to the smaller airports.
747: Again, a legendary jet that redefined international air transport.

If the Boeing company had won the SST competition and it had been produced I would be similarly inclined to lean to Boeing. If large scale production and acceptance in the commercial marketplace it is also an important consideration.

My fundamental choices are:

Lockheed - many, many years of leading edge/bleeding edge advancement for US Airpower represented by P-80 during WWII, F-104 over century series fighters in the 50's, U-2, then YF-12/SR-71 as the most technically challenging aircraft the US ever built until the F-117 and the F-22 and F-35. They designed and built the finest and most versatile transport aircraft ever (including the Douglas airplanes) in the C-130

Lockheed never built a heavy bomber or successful commercial jet liner, but when they did build the Cheyenne, it was the most advanced helicopter in terms of performance. Lockheed did build very nice turbo prop a/c for both maritime use as well as intermediate commercial airliners

Boeing never produced an air superiority fighter, or Recon, or Stealth bomber/fighter, or helicopter until they bought Vertol - or even designed and built a supersonic ship of any type and introduced it into production.

If the time span was through 1970 I would have leaned toward NAA as competitive to Lockheed with stuff ranging from P-51, At-6, F86, F-100, Aero Commander, B-70 and X-15 - all competitive with Lockheed on leading edge aero and technology integration.

Ditto Consolidated/Convair/General Dynamics but they peaked in their production and design capability with B-58, F-111 and F-16 and lost the recent Stealth Fighter comp to F-22.

Messerschmidt and Fock Wulfe and Dornier and Junkers rank with all of them during WWII.

I didn't consider Douglas or Grumman or Norththup because they didn't stand out quite enough in depth and breadth (for me).

So, Lockheed works for me with Boeing and NAA as equals until 1970's while Lockheed continued to innovate to solve tougher technology challenges.

Boeing by far has made the most money

FLYBOYJ · 02-13-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgondog

So, Lockheed works for me with Boeing and NAA as equals until 1970's while Lockheed continued to innovate to solve tougher technology challenges.

Boeing by far has made the most money

I think you nailed it Bill....

As far as the money - I would believe that there was some money that went Lockheed's way though DARPA programs that was really reported in earnings. Comments?

02-13-2009, 01:17 PM	#1
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,513	Best aircraft manufacturer It has been a little more than 100 years since the advent of powered flight. During that time, enormous strides have been made by numerous individuals and manufacturers of aircraft. Which designer, developer and manufacturer, past and present has contributed most, to push the envelope, since the Wright Brothers, to the progress of flight? Last edited by renrich; 02-13-2009 at 01:27 PM.

02-13-2009, 02:08 PM	#5
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,802	Boeing. B17, B29, B47, B52, 707, 727, 737, 747, 777 and soon the 787. Now who can top that? __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

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02-13-2009, 01:29 PM	#2
SoD Stitch Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Pine Mountain Lake, California Posts: 981	Well, this has sort of already been dealt with in another thread, but I'm gonna stick with my original answer: Lockheed. From 1935 to the present, they have been at the forefront of aviation design and technology, and have designed and built some of the most enigmatic aircraft in history, including (but not limited to) the P-38 Lightning, P/F-80 Shooting Star, F-104 Starfighter, U-2/TR-1 Dragon Lady, A-12, SR-71 Blackbird, F-22 Raptor, to name just a few.

02-13-2009, 01:39 PM	#3
Nightwitch Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 67	If you include Jumo, then I might venture to say Junkers. They developed the first all-metal aircraft, the first cantilever wing monoplane, and the first jet engine that was viable for mass production. They haven't done much since the second world war, but their achievements from WWI to the end of WWII were pretty substantial.

02-13-2009, 01:54 PM	#4
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,513	Sorry, I did not realise the other thread had been started. That thread deals with mostly WW2 and this one is supposed to be for the whole history of flight but if the mods want to close this one because it duplicates the other, it is fine by me. In the meantime, I would vote possibly for Lockheed. They had a series of AC such as Grama and Sirius and then Electra, that pushed the envelope in the 20s and 30s. Then the Hudson, P38, Constellation, our first successful jet fighter, P80, F104 and SR71, C130. Did they build the spy plane gary Powers was shot down in? Pretty impressive.

02-13-2009, 03:01 PM	#6
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,513	Don't forget the Boeing Bipes and the airliner that competed with the DC3 and the Stratoliner and the Clipper.

02-13-2009, 04:22 PM	#12
Nightwitch Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 67	The B-17 didn't push the envelope in bomber development as much as the Martin B-10. The B-10 had closed cockpits, rotating gun turrets, and good speed in an all-metal monoplane design. It was really the innovation that led to the B-17.