Best Aircraft in Many Different Roles Part II

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Marcel

Chris, doesn't excell not mean that the a/c was excellent, meaning not just performing well, but really outstanding? I'm not interfering with the discussion here, but just genuinely linguistically puzzled

I think I am spelling it wrong anyhow...

Anyhow, yes it does, but that does not mean it has to be the best. As I said...

Originally Posted by Marcel

And this to be add to the discussion: Mr. Bekker in his Luftwaffe diaries calls the Ju88 a failure. Not by being a bad aircraft, but by not living up to expectations. It was introduced as wonderbomber, but in fact it wasn't really that.It was as Kris (BTW welcome back) pointed out, too slow, under armed, low bombload etc. According to mr. Bekker the Ju88 was a good aircraft, but not a winner.

As a bomber yes, I will agree with you as I said above as well. I am saying that in other roles it was not though. Which is one reason why the aircraft was so versatile, it was adapted well.

[Soren]

The bomb load of the Ju-88 was pretty impressive for a medium bomber if you ask me! Not every medium bomber will carry up to 4 tons of bombs!

[Civettone]

Sorry for the late reply...

I don't want to nitpick but my entire post was about the Ju 88 not excelling. I'm not saying it was not a good aircraft. So in essence I agree with you.

Soren, the He 111 and Do 217 could carry a similar bombload yet had a bigger internal bomb bay. If the Ju 88 wanted to carry 250 or 500 kg bombs it had to carry them externally. You can imagine the kind of drag up to 4 large bombs produced. So it also comes down to maximum and practical payload: for the Ju 88 it was relatively limited.
Guided bombs were becoming increasingly important but enemy air control limited operations. Even by 1945 several missions with guided bombs were carried out against the Soviets as that was an area where the Luftwaffe could still pull that off. I could also point out the He 111 launching hundreds of V 1 bombs. Maybe not that important either but then again, what was??
I can also repeat what I said about the lacking defensive armament compared to He 111, Do 217 or even Do 17!

Then there are the other roles. I already mentioned the Ju 88D which was the main recon version until 1944 and was always too slow and weakly armed to escape enemy fighters. What else? Torpedo bomber? Seems the He 111 kept on being used for that too. He 111 was also used as a transport aircraft. Plus, it was easier/cheaper/faster to build.

As a night fighter it's not enough to be faster than the enemy bombers. I mean, that's simply a minimum! The Ju 88C night fighter could reach around 486 kmh IIRC. It was the MAIN Ju 88 NJ version until midd 1944. I was looking at a full Luftwaffe table dating from June 1944. By that time the Ju 88C had become even slower because of the additional FuG 220 antennas. The cheaper Bf 110 was faster by a large margin.
Ju 88G finally got a more aerodynamical shape and the strong BMW engines pushed the speed up to 540 kmh. Not that impressive for 1944 if you ask me. The Ju 88G-6c with Jumo 213E engines was too rare to mention.

Finally, as an attack aircraft it was unsuited. You asked for a source so here is one: One hundred years of world military ... - Google Books (it also says that the Ju 88 remained an effective night fighter until the end btw)

So bottom line ... is the Ju 88 an excellent bomber/recon/attacker/fighter? Clearly not. It was not the best the Germans had in either role ... but the best combination they had. And it's not that the Italians, Russians or Japanese had anything better.

Kris

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I still don't understand how it was too slow, when it could fly faster than most of the bombers it would be attacking during night missions. The bombers would be flying at there cruise speed which was certainly less than the Ju 88s speed.

[Soren]

The Ju-88G has a top speed of over 600 km/h with boost Civettonne, and 550 km/h without. The top speed of the Ju-88C was 510 km/h.

And as for bomb load, again the Ju-88 could carry more than most other medium bombers, be it external or internal.

And on top of this the handling of the Ju-88 was rated as excellent.

Top notch a/c and one of the greats in the LW. The Do-17 wasn't even close!

[Juha]

Hello Soren
what is your source for the 4 tom bomb load for Ju 88. According to Ladeplan for Ju 88A-4 and A-14 max normal t/o weight bomb load was 2 tons, max for overload t/o weight bomb load was 3 tons. In very special cases 1x 1800kg + 1x1400kg bomb was possible. Now Cescotti in his book on German bombers writes that even 2x1800kg bombload was possible if fuel load was reduced to 1000kg, but that was the limit.
Do 217, which Germans called heavy bomber, could carry 4 tons bomb load.

Juha

[Civettone]

Chris, an interceptor needs to be faster to be able to catch the enemy aircraft. Especially in WW2 when radar guidanc e was faulty: the ground operators were constantly being mislead and sending the interceptors all over the place. If the Ju 88C flew 50 kmh faster but it was off by 50 km it would have taken a full hour to catch that bomber.
Faster fighters can also intercept more aircraft. Plus, it makes them more difficult for the Mosquito to intercept them.

Soren, which Ju 88G and C version are you talking about?
What was the maximum payload of the He 111? What was the biggest bomb the Ju 88 could carry internally?

Kris

[Juha]

Civettone
the internal load of A series Ju 88s consisted 50kg bombs.

Juha

[Civettone]

Originally Posted by Juha

Civettone
the internal load of A series Ju 88s consisted 50kg bombs.

Juha

Correct! (I just wanted Soren to say it haha)

Kris

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Civettone

Chris, an interceptor needs to be faster to be able to catch the enemy aircraft. Especially in WW2 when radar guidanc e was faulty: the ground operators were constantly being mislead and sending the interceptors all over the place. If the Ju 88C flew 50 kmh faster but it was off by 50 km it would have taken a full hour to catch that bomber.
Faster fighters can also intercept more aircraft. Plus, it makes them more difficult for the Mosquito to intercept them.

You are correct, but the Ju 88 was much faster than the bombers which would be flying at cruising speed, not top speed (as they had to conserve fuel). The Ju 88s typical target was not a fighter, it was a bomber...

So no, it was not slower than its intended targets.

[Civettone]

Of course it wasn't. But why did the Germans try to get faster night fighters? To dodge the Mosquito? That too. But mainly because greater speed made a better interceptor. The Ju 88C was too slow to "excell". Here I go again haha

Kris

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well you can believe that if you wish. I don't buy it.

[Civettone]

For a fighter the Ju 88C had a more than generous size, but this enabled it to carry both powerful armament and extensive electronic equipment. Hence it was an obvious candidate for conversion to a nightfighter. Initial operations were conducted without radars, but in late 1942 some Ju 88C-6 fighters received the Lichtenstein BC radar, later replaced by Lichtenstein C-1 and in late 1943 by Lichtenstein SN-2. Althought the Messerschmitt Bf 110 remained the most numerous nightfighter, the Ju 88C took an increasing part; it was well-liked, but actually too slow for this role. In early 1943 enough BMW 801 engines were finally available, and version of the Ju 88C with these was known as the Ju 88R.

by Emmanuel Gustin at uboat.net - Technical pages

and

Bomber types, while large enough to house a four- to five-man crew, bulky radio equipment and ample guns and ammunition in new 'solid' nose sections, were considered to be too slow to be effective night interceptors, as they also lacked manoeuvrability and were excessively heavy.

from Jerry Scutts. German night fighter aces of World War 2


But in fact I wonder why else the Germans and in fact all nations wanted faster night fighters? To a certain extent this must have been to catch enemy night fighters or else to escape from them but this surely is not always the main reason. The P-61s future was uncertain because the generals believed it was to slow compared to the Mosquito. The P-61 replaced the P-70 which was still faster than any German bomber yet had to be replaced.
But again, if that was all about combatting German night fighters, then I'm wrong and you're right!

Kris

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The only reason I could see would be to intercept other night fighters or a more probable case the Mossie, because the Ju 88 was more than fast enough for the average bomber.

[Vincenzo]

P-70 was fastest of cruising luftwaffe bombers but none fightning versus luftwaffe, maybe the speed was not all for a nightfighter.