Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

[the lancaster kicks ass]

les's had to much brandy butter.............

[lesofprimus]

Hehe.... Also, too much of this woman Crystal... A friend of a friend.... God, shes so annoying... I dont despise many people..... Hitler, Stalin, Usama, Saddam, and this stupid Bitch Crystal....

I had to talk and be in the same room as her.. And be nice.... Hehe, I ignored the hell outta her... Shes just a retard who tells retarded stories, interupts conversations, and basically grates on my every nerve.....

AAAAarrrrrrrrrggggggggggHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nonskimmer]

Sounds like my sister in-law!

[Erich]

back on topic gentlemen...........

A B-24 getting the guts torn out by 2cm and 3cm Minengeschoss

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The German Minengeschoß rounds introduced a different manufacturing technique: A thin shell was drawn, in the same way as a cartridge case is drawn. This resulted in a much larger explosive capacity for the same calibre, and became widespread after the war. It is commonly assumed that HE ammunition is really effective only in calibres of 20mm or larger, but it was also made for 12.7mm and even rifle-calibre weapons.

These are the belt compositions for fighters, used against air targets, as given given in a German manual, published in in 1944. (Ref. 204.) Note that these were more or less advisory: Local commanders were encouraged to determine the armament mix that suited them. (Note I am only posting for the 20mm and 30mm, if you want more info on other gun types go to: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...n/fgun-am.html)

20 mm (MG-FF, MG 151/20)
2 Minengeschoß m. Zerl.
2 Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur m. Zerl
oder Brandgranatpatronen
1 Panzersprenggranatpatrone o. Zerl
oder Panzerbrandgranatpatrone (Phospor) o. Zerl.
Here the Minengeschoß appears for the first time. A version of the 20mm M-Geschoß with tracer did not exist, so tracer was used on HE/I (Brandsprenggranatpatrone) or pure incendiary (Brandgranatpatrone) rounds. The latter was apparently a new development in 1944, intended to replace the less effective HE/I. The fifth round was a semi-AP projectile, explosive or incendiary. Apparently the main reason this was used instead of a solid AP round was that a solid projectile would have been too heavy.

It was recommended that more AP or semi-AP ammunition would be loaded when the probable targets were well-armoured attack aircraft such as the Il-2. On the other hand, against the four-engined bombers of the RAF and USAAF the high explosive types were more effective.

30 mm low-velocity (MK 10
Minengeschoß 108 El o. Zerl.
Only the Minengeschoß was fired by the MK 108, also in versions with day or night tracer. The ammunition was not interchangeable with that of the much more powerful MK 101 and MK 103, hence the addition 108. The letters El probably indicate the presence of Elektron, an incendiary compound, in the projectiles. Surprisingly, self-destruction fuses were not used, although German fighters were operating over the home country at this time in the war. Probably it was felt that this reduced the effective range too much.

30 mm high-velocity (MK 101, MK 103)
1 Sprenggranatpatrone L'Spur o. Zerl
1 Minengeschoß L'Spur o. Zerl
1 Panzersprenggranatpatrone L'Spur o. Zerl
oder Panzerbrandsprenggranatpatrone L'Spur o. Zerl
The MK 103 was a high-velocity weapon with a much better armour penetration than the MK 108. Hence the addition of the older type of HE round and semi-AP ammunition to the mix. The exception were the nightfighters, which used only the Minengeschoß with a glowing trace (Gl'spur).

[Erich]

actually the Mk 108 rounds came in a variety of evil like rounds : 7 that I know of designated with different coloured nose rings, blue, grey, red, dark red, green and again blue

E

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeah I am only going off what the website was telling me. I dont know exactly how they linked them or what.

[Erich]

depending on the a/c the SturmFw's had HE and HEI interspersed but will have to really dig for the info as to how many rounds to rounds on the links for both 2cm and 3cm. From what I remembver and it has been about 5 years ago. 5 yellow bodied HE Minen with one dark bodied I Minen round. Again this is from memory which is probably wrong in this case.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thats really interesting to know though.

[wmaxt]

One thing I read was that Tom Lynch removed all the incindary rounds because of their different trajctories and it actuly improved the score of his pilots!

[Erich]

remember the SturmFw's were to bring down as many US heavy bombers as possible and this required close-in type tactics with the pilot closing within one hundred yards and closer and banking away only at the last minute. Pumping as many HEI rounds to start fires but just simply to blow anything inside the bomber away but also including the engines on one wing of the a/c to flip it over. I have many bomber crew reports after war and from members of bombers that made it back to England and the effects of the 2cm and 3cm M rounds was horrific

Erich ~

[Erich]

here is a little note I dug ut of my night fighter files on friend and ace Peter Spoden.

the ammo we used was a mixture done by the Waffenmeister according to the wishes of the pilot.

Normally 1 explosive Minengeschoss, then 1 Phosphorbrand and 1 tracer-glimmspur, the last not too bright. with the tracer the pilot could follow the round. Our 2cm was terribly effective.

After the mission our "black men" checked the used ammo for the claim-report and (I told you already that in one case the pilot brought down a Lnacster with one shot of Phosphor-brand in the fuel tanks, because he had Ladehemmung (jamed guns) after this shot.) this was checked by the mechanics...............

Peter Spoden 6./NJG 6, flying Ju 88G-6's

Erich

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I knew that they were very serious about confirming there kills but was it that bad?

[Erich]

that bad ? hmmmmmmmmm

if you have seen an Abschussmeldung report you would see that the type of armament as well as the type of rounds many times and how many used are always present, but like I said too, from the fall of 1944 onward the processing of these claims-kills was done away with so personal records in flight books as well as by staffel reports had to be kept. Memories such as Herr Spodens are vital to understand the typical Luftwaffe calim type of form and what was done to approve it. It wasn't just NJG 6 but all the Nachtjagd and Tagjagd

Erich

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I knew it was official but why wouldn't just other pilots seeing the kill confirm it. I mean it was sort of an honorable race among each other to get the most.