Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

[lesofprimus]

Nice Bill, gave me a laugh.... That last one with the Wolfhounds, is that something ur in the process of painting??? If so it looks very good...

[SoD Stitch]

I would have to (also) go with the 262; true, it came out too late to make a difference in the War, but post-War tests of it's Mk-108 armament showed it only took three or four rounds to bring down a heavy, even the "tough" B-17. Against a fighter, it only took one or two 30mm rounds. I saw a picture of a Mk-108 round versus a Hurricane; it completely severed the tail with a single (explosive) round.

And, as mentioned above, the German pilots of the 262 were just finally developing effective tactics for the 262 when the War ended. According to post-War interviews with senior 262 pilots, they would approach bomber formations from the rear and execute a "roller-coaster" manuever; they would overtake the formation about 1000' above and a few miles behind the bombers. They would go into a shallow dive, overtaking the bombers at about twice their speed (500 mph+). When they were approximately 500' below the bombers and about a half mile behind, they would pull up underneath the bomber, which would slow the 262 down for better accuracy, and hit the bottom of the bomber(s) with their Mk-108's. Very effective.

[Erich]

it's called a porpoise or Dolphin maneuver which I have stated at length in past theads.

the Fw 190A-8/R-8 pilots did something similar and actually could dive on the rear of the B-17's pull up and blast the belly turret and tail gunners positions and then even overshoot and hit the B-17 in front of the one they were dealing with to score 2 kills. I have gun cams to prove this. HE-I Minengeschoss 2cm and 3cm was just plain ugly

problem with the 262 is : it just plain too fast in the bomber intercepting role

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by Erich

it's called a porpoise or Dolphin maneuver which I have stated at length in past theads.

the Fw 190A-8/R-8 pilots did something similar and actually could dive on the rear of the B-17's pull up and blast the belly turret and tail gunners positions and then even overshoot and hit the B-17 in front of the one they were dealing with to score 2 kills. I have gun cams to prove this. HE-I Minengeschoss 2cm and 3cm was just plain ugly

problem with the 262 is : it just plain too fast in the bomber intercepting role

Yes, the Sturmbock 190's [U]were[U] very effective; I have no doubt they scored more bomber kills than the 262's did, especially given they were operational for at least twice as long (?).

The Minengeschoss 3cm you refer to, was that the Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk-103? I know the -190 was cleared to carry the -103 in underwing pods during the later stages of the War.

[Erich]

no it is for the Mk 108 short barrel. Mk 103's were NOT fitted to any Fw 190 for combat for air to air targets or air to ground. test prototypes only

[lesofprimus]

Originally Posted by Erich

HE-I Minengeschoss 2cm and 3cm was just plain ugly

Damn right brother.... I'll upload a clip of someone gettin the bejeezus nailed out of them...

Originally Posted by Erich

problem with the 262 is : it just plain too fast in the bomber intercepting role

I agree wholeheartedly 100% with u Erich...

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

no it is for the Mk 108 short barrel. Mk 103's were NOT fitted to any Fw 190 for combat for air to air targets or air to ground. test prototypes only

Funny thing about that gun.

A USMC Colonel designed a 30mm very similar to Mk 103 that we tested at Bell Helicopter when I was there. It was an option for the 3 Barrel GE 20mm in chin turret... and it was an option for the Army to replace the 7.62x51.

Problem (BIG problem) is that the cyclic rate for this one was right at the natural frequency of the loaded airframe - on our first hover test (about two feet off ground) we had a camera watching the tailboom to record during the firing sequences- starting to look like an agitated sidewinder when we shut it down.

End of test - end of concept. There were ways of changing the cyclical firing rate but Marines opted for the long barrel GE on the AH-1J

[Erich]

Bill :

Please remember the Mk 108 30mm bomber killer is different than the much longer barreled and heavier Mk 103 30mm that you mention, firing different rounds, the Mk 103 also used longer rounds and was used very effectively as a ground -tank and MT buster on the Eastern front.

[drgondog]

the 30mm Wecom was actually a short barrel 'Thang. The 20mm GE (XM-188?) was a long barrel varmint.

From memory the Wecom 30 barrel was perhaps 24 inches and a short round -about same lengthas our 40mm grenade

therefore the Wecom might have derived from the Mk108?

[blu3y4]

i personally dont know much however ive heard the Fw-190 had a good kill ratio (im unsure but)

but the me-262 would get my vote other wise.

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by Erich

no it is for the Mk 108 short barrel. Mk 103's were NOT fitted to any Fw 190 for combat for air to air targets or air to ground. test prototypes only

My sources indicate the Mk103 was installed on more than a few units as a "Rustsatze", or Field Modification Kit (not a factory kit!); when the Mk103 was installed, the designation would end with "R3".

Referenced from WW2 Warbirds: the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger (Shrike) - Frans Bonné - See underlined section:

Rüstsätze (field conversion sets):

Fw 190F-8/R1 Attack aircraft, armed with 2 × 0.51 in (13 mm) MG 131 fuselage-mounted guns and 4 × 20 mm MG 151/20 wing-mounted cannon as well as underwing bombs on 4 × ETC 71 racks.
Fw 190F-8/R2 Attack aircraft, armed with 2 × 0.51 in (13 mm) MG 131 fuselage-mounted guns and 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 wing-mounted cannon, supplemented by 2 × 30 mm MK 108 cannon in underwing gondolas.
Fw 190F-8/R3 Attack aircraft, armed with 2 × 0.51 in (13 mm) MG 131 guns and 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon, supplemented by 2 × 30 mm MK 103 underwing cannon for tank-busting operations.
Fw 190F-8/R13 Nocturnal ground-attack fighter, fitted with additional navigation equipment and armed with 2 × 0.51 in (13 mm) MG 131 fuselage-mounted guns and up to 3,307 lb (1.500 kg) of disposable stores carried on 1 × ETC 501 underfuselage rack and 2 × ETC 503 underwing racks
Fw 190F-8/R14 Torpedo-fighter, powered by 1 × BMW 801TU radial, rated at 2,000 hp (1.491 kW) for take-off. It featured the PKS 12 radio navigation system, and was armed with 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon in the wing roots and one LT F5b torpedo carried on an ETC 502 underfuselage rack.
Fw 190F-8/R15 Torpedo-fighter, equal to the Fw 190F-8/R14, but with the standard 1 × BMW 801D-2 engine and a 3,086 lb (1400 kg) LT 1400 torpedo-bomb.
Fw 190F-8/R16 Torpedo-fighter, equal to the Fw 190F-8/15, but with a 1,543 lb (700 kg) LT 700 torpedo-bomb.


Number built: 385

[Erich]

well the guys info is incorrect. bombs and the useage of hard core point 2cm ammo was used along with the panzerblitz killer rockets on the F-8 variant. NO mk 103 on Fw 190's were used by units in the field for tank busting, test pieces only...........

[lesofprimus]

I concur with Erich, as my references and info show that NO Mk 103 armed 190A's entered field ops...

[reddragon]

I would think the advantage of the ME-262 would be it's speed, which meant that it wouldn't have to worry as much about having to fight it's way through the fighters to reach the bombers.

[Erich]

the 262 problems: unreliable engines that flame out easy enough, wide turning radius enough for the P-51 to turn inside, no long range cannon. All 3cm Mk 108 short range, the largest factor due to speed is the close in rate on the rear of a B-17/B-24, Lanc/Hali. for an inexperienced pilot they would blow right by with getting in a shot