Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

[The Basket]

What about the 37mm cannon in the Ariacobra? The Russians must have hacked a few bombers down with that.

The upward firing cannon in the German nightfighters was a work of sheer genius. Certainly the best way to shoot a bomber down. The perfect non deflection shot right in the fuel tanks or bomb bay. Any aircraft fitted with these guns would be lethal.

Go with the 262. A head on pass would mean a B-17 coming at you at 700mph. But could get through the escorts and shoot and then out again.

If it had the role, the P-47 would have have been an awesome bomber destroyer.

[bigZ]

Originally Posted by The Basket

Go with the 262. A head on pass would mean a B-17 coming at you at 700mph. But could get through the escorts and shoot and then out again.

Unless your a good shot with cat like reactions. Your gonna end up with brown pants at best or your a&$e sharing the same space as your head.

[Erich]

well Basket the Me 262 units were ordered to attack from the rear like conventional LW prop jobs during late 44-45 so they could get into position and drill the engines and inner wings. A frontal attack was beyond reason and would carry the 262's through the bomber box to the rear where Allied escorts would have it much easier to take them out.

The Schrägwaffen or upward firing guns on the LW night fighters were a very effective means of taking out RAF heavies but the pilot fired between the engines, the engines themselves and not into the bomb bay which would bring on a disaster as you could well imagine taking the LW crew with the RAF one. Same would apply to the fuel tanks, in fact I have interviewed LW NF crews who told me they would hit the engines bank off and watch the wing take hold and burn the fire leading to the fuel tanks and then the ultimate explosion or the wing shredding off
so again we go back did the Me 262 have the means to be the ultimate bomber killer ? probably not in 44-45, too short range, the external fuel tanks would have slowed the jet way down

[The Basket]

Do you think the Do-335 was the answer? Certainly had speed firepower and range.

But wasn't the Me-110 built for this type of combat? Was the Ju-88 heavy fighters ever used to take on unescorted bombers in daylight?

I Don't think the perfect answer exists in the context of WW2. The Germans really needed a MiG-15 type aircraft although the ideas were around at the time. If I recall the Ta-183 shared a likeness. An air to air guided missile would have been handy too.

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by The Basket

Do you think the Do-335 was the answer? Certainly had speed firepower and range.

But wasn't the Me-110 built for this type of combat? Was the Ju-88 heavy fighters ever used to take on unescorted bombers in daylight?

I Don't think the perfect answer exists in the context of WW2. The Germans really needed a MiG-15 type aircraft although the ideas were around at the time. If I recall the Ta-183 shared a likeness. An air to air guided missile would have been handy too.

"Yes", to the last two questions . . . the MiG-15 actually was (indirectly) based on a German jet design of WWII. And there was an air-to-air missle developed by the Germans in late '44/early '45, but it wasn't very effective; it was too slow, and it wasn't self-guiding - it had to be steered all the way to the (moving) target by the pilot, which took about 30 seconds, and all the while the German pilot would be getting shot at by multiple Allied aircraft. Not very safe . . .

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by The Basket

Do you think the Do-335 was the answer? Certainly had speed firepower and range.

But wasn't the Me-110 built for this type of combat? Was the Ju-88 heavy fighters ever used to take on unescorted bombers in daylight?

I Don't think the perfect answer exists in the context of WW2. The Germans really needed a MiG-15 type aircraft although the ideas were around at the time. If I recall the Ta-183 shared a likeness. An air to air guided missile would have been handy too.

The Ju88 was used in attempting to stop B-17s and B-24s in daylight when NJG units were pressed into service in late 1943. The Mustang and P-38s eliminated the practice in early to mid 1944.

Do 335 would have been formidable. Too few, waaaay too late

The 110 was originally a long range escort that was hammered in BoB - became the foundation for NJG fighters battling the RAF, pressed into service in 1943 against 8th AF, hammered again first by 47s, then 38s and 51s as the 110's pulled back out of range of 47's.

[Erich]

the revamped 262 and other jet projects were the wave of the future. Prop jobs were on their way out. The do 335 may have looked formidable but never flew on ops so it is all guesswork.

the NJG units 2 and 3 used the Ju 88C's for anti-bomber work, none of them with rockets only the Bf 110G-4 in limited amounts and of course the ZG's with the bomber killing Bf 110G-2, rockets, cannon in ZG 101, ZG 1, ZG 26 and ZG 76. As Bill pointed out were fodder for the storm drain in late 43 into spring of 44, but then a movement to Austria and used side by side with 109's of JG 27, this was heavy unit II./ZG 1 which had some success even into the summer of 44 against the 15th AF before the ZG was completely drained of a/c and reserves in men and then they were transferred into daylight Reich units. They were too cumbersome, slow, non-manueverable with Allied escorts and many times without any high protection staffeln of single engine fighters.

[Aussie1001]

you guys are nuts firstly the 262 was introduced so late in the war that it did jack to stop the bombers the ju88 was a very good aircraft at shooting down bombers and lanc i hate to point it out but the lancaster had no bottom turrent and when the ju88 was equiped with slanting music it devestated the english bombers although the bombers had no escort to help them at night either.....

[outremerknight]

My personal opinion is that the best bomber killer was the BF110 series.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Aussie1001

you guys are nuts firstly the 262 was introduced so late in the war that it did jack to stop the bombers

That was not there point. There point was its capability...

Originally Posted by Aussie1001

the ju88 was a very good aircraft at shooting down bombers and lanc i hate to point it out but the lancaster had no bottom turrent and when the ju88 was equiped with slanting music it devestated the english bombers

You might want to talk to Erich about this....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by outremerknight

My personal opinion is that the best bomber killer was the BF110 series.

Can you explain why? Because it was very outclassed and if there were escorts for the bombers the Bf 110s would be slaughtered.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Aussie1001

you guys are nuts firstly the 262 was introduced so late in the war that it did jack to stop the bombers the ju88 was a very good aircraft at shooting down bombers and lanc i hate to point it out but the lancaster had no bottom turrent and when the ju88 was equiped with slanting music it devestated the english bombers although the bombers had no escort to help them at night either.....

It's interesting how the word 'bomber' evokes different first images.. To a Japanese it would probably bring up a B-29, for which there was no 'night fighter' bomber killer for the mode of attack the B-29 used to burn out demand - but would think Shiden for daylight.

Your first reaction was to dismiss the 262 because your focus was on a.) night, and b.) RAF did night ops to avoid day fighters - and really developed no long range 'night escort' - so Ju88, Me110, He219 come to mind as bomber destroyer - all of which were exterminated against the USAAF Daylight ops.

My first reaction was daylight, where the 110G-2 and 410s and Ju88s were deadly against B-17s and B-24s but became easy prey for 51s, 38s and 47s - so the Fw190A8, Me262, and any Me109 equipped w/30mm were a better solution - but USAAF Mustangs solved all of the bomber destroyer threats except for the exceptionall high performance jets and rockets - couldn't stop a 262 or 163 from attacking

but the only reason the 262 didn't wreak havoc is because it took time to develop effective tactics, were too few in number, and those that existed were in mortal fear of the sweeps before and during takeoff as well as running out of fuel and trying to land. But nothing topped it for sheer performance and devastating anti-bomber firepower

The LW didn't have a 'night destroyer' problem with conventional a/c - it kept inflicting huge losses on RAF ops in 1945 because the RAF had no escort solution.. opposite situation for USAAF who last lost 10% of its striking force on May12, 1944 - and the LW had to have a technological leap to defeat the Escort to get to the bombers.

Regards,

Bill

[ToughOmbre]

Sturmgruppen FW 190s are high on the list.

On 15 August 1944 the 303rd Bomb Group lost nine B-17s in a little under two minutes on the return flight from it's target, the Luftwaffe airfield at Weisbaden, Germany.

Keith Ferris' print, "A Test of Courage", commemorates that mission.

[lesofprimus]

Perfect post Bill...

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Perfect post Bill...

Dan - thx but we both know I stumble on the English language and context as much as any. One good (really good) feature of this group is waving your arms and pontificating beliefs versus facts often end in having to swallow pride and admit that one didn't have all the fact or deal with right set of definitions.

Belief systems are hell when dealing w/Pragmatists

PS I just stumbled on a bunch of pics I took with Doolitle, Rall, Krupinski, Tolliver, Galland, Scharf, Tolliver, Parr, Landers, Gray, Sublett, Robin O. and others - does anybody give a Sh**? If so I will digitize and post

1984 Fighter Aces convention that I was asked to speak - plus catch up with guys I really cared about. The best part was Doolittle remembering when Priest picked up my father and having a rational argument with Galland and Rall about 'local air superiority' and last with one having dinner with one of my old mans best friends - who was in Hanoi Hilton when Fonda defiled the area - Gen John Flynn RIP