Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by cormallen

Hi Folks

The answer is fairly dependant on whether our prospective giant killer has to cope with assorted "little friends" trying to butt in?!

If our herioc "defender-of-the-hearth" gets to play with the B17/B24/B29 formation without any uncouth interruptions then all you need is a plane that can catch cruising bomber formations... With B17/24 this is not really too hard given a sensible degree of warning.

If, as is likely historically, there are swarms of P47/51 type things around then you either need lots of Fw190D/Bf109G-K types to play with the escorts or... Me262s... regardless of their undoubted engine issues, they are the only thing to really have sufficient performance to have a chance of getting a good crack at the massed bombers...

Reality stipulated that a.) not enough 109K/109D's available to keep Reich twins (conventional) alive. The Me 110 died in January/Febr 1944, the Me 410was rendered useless in July - ditto Ju 88 - for daytime effectiveness and way too important as night fighters. The Fw 190A8 needed 109G/K escorts to survive in bomber altitude rat races.

Really "late" war german concepts start getting either utterly hopeless (what-no-fuel?!) or very space age (Luft'46 etc with swept wing creations loaded with guided missiles and SAMs joining in...) depending on desired reality level.

regards alan

Good points leading to conclusions for late 1944 through end of war.

The Me 262, despite its problems, was the Only German interceptor that was able to attack with devastating firepower and disengage at will - and then hope to find an airfield not being 'visited' when it was low on fuel.

Me 163 was too range limited, there weren't near enough Fw 190D's to make it interesting and the Ta 152 and He 162 while superb potentially were far too late.

[ksilber11]

I'm going to go with the FW-190 A8/R2. The 262 was pretty good, but it was fragile and pretty much too fast.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by ksilber11

I'm going to go with the FW-190 A8/R2. The 262 was pretty good, but it was fragile and pretty much too fast.

The 'problem' with the Fw 190A8 is that it was a real killer but much too slow to survive at 23-28K versus Mustangs. It had a few spectacular successes but was crucified when caught,

The 262 could engage and break away at will... pretty much

[ksilber11]

Well we're talking about the best bomber killers here, not the best dogfighters

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by ksilber11

Well we're talking about the best bomber killers here, not the best dogfighters

Neither were great dogfighters, but only one had the technology to escape and at the same time had the most effective bomber killing armament, moreso than 190A8.

The other would have been extremely deadly if it had entered operations one year earlier - when escorts were absent. The 262 did not achieve the operational successes due to tactics. The 190A8 did not achieve operational expectations because it did not have a technical advantage to enable engage and escape from escorts.

Pick the one you personally would wish to bring you home from July 1944 to end of war against 8th AF FC escorts?

I still respect your choice - just disagree, though not passionately

In the same context, the Me 110 and 410 were great bomber killers - but like the 190A8 they were dramatically reduced in effectivity by the Mustang.

So, as you intimated earlier - if only the 1908A8 didn't have to play with the escorts - it was awesome.

[Erich]

this is subtle but ............ the 262 was a crap of a dogfighter, speed yes, turning .............no way, over and over again US Mustangs put the petal to the metal

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

this is subtle but ............ the 262 was a crap of a dogfighter, speed yes, turning .............no way, over and over again US Mustangs put the petal to the metal

Agreed E, but unlike the A8, the 262 could disengage to fight another day.

Looked at another way, the Fw 190A8 lost as many aircraft in one week to Mustangs in November, 1944 as all the Me 262s shot down by Mustangs during their entire operational history.

Speed kills.

[Erich]

ah but on the other hand how many JG's had the A-8 on hand and were in use every stinking day while the 262's did not even come into numbers if we want to call it that till February of 45 when 3/4's of the Reich defense went to the Ost front

no doubt the A-8/A-9 had no chance against the Us Mustang escorts for a variety of reasons but so this was the case for III./JG 7 which made the most impact with their jets, 35 operational about 12-15 per mission if that average, so if we take into consideration with the amount of P-51's kicked up by the 8th, 15th and the lesser extent 9th AF, how many 262's per Mustang.................not many

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

ah but on the other hand how many JG's had the A-8 on hand and were in use every stinking day while the 262's did not even come into numbers if we want to call it that till February of 45 when 3/4's of the Reich defense went to the Ost front

no doubt the A-8/A-9 had no chance against the Us Mustang escorts for a variety of reasons but so this was the case for III./JG 7 which made the most impact with their jets, 35 operational about 12-15 per mission if that average, so if we take into consideration with the amount of P-51's kicked up by the 8th, 15th and the lesser extent 9th AF, how many 262's per Mustang.................not many

All true Erich - so going back to 'best' - what is the best?

if we go on the basis of number of Me 262s downed per Mustang on escort - versus number of A8's downed - it would seem that the survivavbility ratio favors the 262.

If we go on the basis of number of bombers knocked down per A8 sorties vs 262 sorties I am thinking, without fact or data, that the 262 however clumsily deployed probably comes out best here also? Ditto ratio of escort fighter destroyed by 262 vs A8.

Another charm school poll with few objective criteria to base decisions?

[ksilber11]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Neither were great dogfighters, but only one had the technology to escape and at the same time had the most effective bomber killing armament, moreso than 190A8.

The other would have been extremely deadly if it had entered operations one year earlier - when escorts were absent. The 262 did not achieve the operational successes due to tactics. The 190A8 did not achieve operational expectations because it did not have a technical advantage to enable engage and escape from escorts.

Pick the one you personally would wish to bring you home from July 1944 to end of war against 8th AF FC escorts?

I still respect your choice - just disagree, though not passionately

In the same context, the Me 110 and 410 were great bomber killers - but like the 190A8 they were dramatically reduced in effectivity by the Mustang.

So, as you intimated earlier - if only the 1908A8 didn't have to play with the escorts - it was awesome.

Ya I see what you mean, and I don't completely disagree with you, though I'd still probably rather fly the FW-190. I guess they had different ways of achieving the same job. For instance the Me-262 most likely made a lot of quick passes, safely taking out one bomber at a time. Whereas the 190 would probably take its time, shoot down a few bombers in one pass, while using its added armor to deflect more rounds, at least somewhat safely.

Not really sure which one is more effective though, i'd assume there's pro's and con's for each. Keep in mind though i'm really just now getting into WWII aircraft, so i'm not exactly sure how accurate some of my assumptions are.

[Amsel]

Me 262 in my opinion. It flew waaay faster then the bomber escorts!

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by ksilber11

Ya I see what you mean, and I don't completely disagree with you, though I'd still probably rather fly the FW-190. I guess they had different ways of achieving the same job. For instance the Me-262 most likely made a lot of quick passes, safely taking out one bomber at a time. Whereas the 190 would probably take its time, shoot down a few bombers in one pass, while using its added armor to deflect more rounds, at least somewhat safely.

Not really sure which one is more effective though, i'd assume there's pro's and con's for each. Keep in mind though i'm really just now getting into WWII aircraft, so i'm not exactly sure how accurate some of my assumptions are.

At the stage of the war in which both entered combat - it was a luxury to make more than one pass for either. In the case of the 262 if it turned to come back for another pass it gave time for the escorst to close - ditto the A8.

In either case it was a non habit forming tactic but the 262 had a better chance of escaping.

[fly boy]

me262

[Bill G.]

The best bomber killer operated at night. It was the He-219. It had decent enough radar, speed, and massive fire power. If Germany had had more, the RAF bombers would have been little more than sitting ducks. The Allies had no way to escort the RAF at night.

During the day, Germany had many good bomber killers. The problem was P-51s, P-47s, and the P-38s. And the invention of drop tanks. This team made going after our bombers very dangerous work. The German interceptors needed escort fighters just to deal with our escorts. And fighters to defend their own bases.

Two things in the end doomed the Luftwaffe. The first was lack of trained pilots. The second was lack of fuel. They had plenty of day fighters. But planes on the ground don't shoot down bombers.

My two bits American.

Bill G.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Bill G.

The best bomber killer operated at night. It was the He-219. It had decent enough radar, speed, and massive fire power. If Germany had had more, the RAF bombers would have been little more than sitting ducks. The Allies had no way to escort the RAF at night.

During the day, Germany had many good bomber killers. The problem was P-51s, P-47s, and the P-38s. And the invention of drop tanks. This team made going after our bombers very dangerous work. The German interceptors needed escort fighters just to deal with our escorts. And fighters to defend their own bases.



Bill G.

Bill - good choice for night time. Would you choose over the 262 two seater night fighter that could also be 'pressed into' daylight role?

Conversely how would He 219 do in daylight?