Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

[Guns'n'Props]

Originally Posted by Erich

On yesterdays date in 1944 the US 445th bg was nearly destroyed by the 3 Sturmgruppen

todays date back in 1944 IV.Sturm/JG 3 ripped up 18 B-17's out of the 41st CBW. the 1st BD lost another 9-10 possibly to IV.STurm/JG 3 as well or another one of the SturmFW units - JG 300 in combination with JG 3's.

the SturmFw's made one pass from the rear through the heafvy bombers then turned around and were free to attack from all angles

US losses for the date are still confusing

I really had an apparently mistaken impression that by late Sep'44 the P-51s had Jadgwaffe sorted out. Was this a singular incident or were such losses still occurring from time to time ? Is it possible that these units were the lowest or last in the bomber formation thus the most vulnerable ?

[Erich]

October 6 and 7th, November 2nd, 21st, 27th, 28th

several missions in December as well, January 14, 1945

will back up into September again, September 11, 12th 44; all of July since the 7th and the month of August

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Guns'n'Props

I once read some anecdote of Wing Cmdr Douglas Benham flying Spitfire XIVs late in the war. With a height advantage of 5000feet + he would try to bounce 262 with steep vertical dives - to get the speed - and then chase. Apparently the idea was that if the 262 pilot was a veteran he would keep his cool and advance the throttles gradually thus picking up speed but if he was green he'd panic, fling the throttles open and possibly try to turn into the attack. WC Benham claimed that making the 262 fly flat out for more than 10mins would cause the engines to fail and 41 Sqdr used this tactic successfully on 6 occasions. Admittedly I have never verified this but the fact that the quality of engine materials available to the Germans at the time was poor does support it

There's many problems with that claim...

The situation mentioned could be applied to any aircraft, not just the 262. Its a matter of seen and be seen. If you're diving on an opponent from 5000' above you could be in a bi-plane and have the advantage. As far as Benham's 10 minute claim, not true on the Jumo and for that manner just about any turbine engine. When flying the a turbine engine you are operating at RPMs in the high 80 and low 90%. Spooling up to full power happened a lot quicker than if you were at flight idle and then suddenly slamming the power levers to 100%. You never flew an early jet at flight idle unless you has some other issues.

And again for 10 minutes? If Benham was chasing a 262 for 10 minutes at WEP, I think he too would have some engine issues as well even if flying a Griffon powered Spit. WW2 dogfights rarely lasted more than a very few minutes if not sooner.

As long as turbine temps are kept within parameters you could run a turbine engine at 100% all day. The problems with the early Jumos was the materials used in the turbine section and the lack of nickel steels which were compensated by other means.

BTW Recip aircraft have throttles, jets have power levers.

[Guns'n'Props]

Thanks for the info Flyboyj. I had no idea that turbines are flown at 80%+ so this rules out the "panic the pilot" tactic. This implies that unless you got really lucky the only way you could take out a 262 was (in fact) at take-off or landing.

It would be interesting to check on 41 Squadron's claims for 262s in '45. Maybe they came across a spate of 262's with Jumos past their "best before date". It is also possible that Benham was just describing a singular case that was incorrectly quoted or recorded.

Yes I agree that most dogfights were over in a very short time - unlike the ones on my PC flight simulators.

[Civettone]

Oh no it's perfectly possible to catch a Me 262 while diving down and thereby achieving higher speeds. There are several documented kills done in that fashion. The problem Flyboyj had with that story was more about the stuff on the 10 minute chase. That doesn't make sense. Not only because of the Jumo 004 being able to take those rpms. But also because the momentary speed advantage would not last 10 minutes.

Other accounts claim that Mustang pilots gave chase to a Me 262 after gaining speed after diving down on the Me 262. They would not be able to catch up but would wait for the (inexperienced) Me 262 pilot to turn after which they would go for the kill. That was another lesson for Me 262 pilots: don't turn violently but turn gently while keeping your main weapon: speed ! (Strangily enough this was also the main strength of the Mustang.)

Kris

[Guns'n'Props]

I've finally done a bit of reading on the 262. I admit the 262 is not one of my favourite WW2 aircraft hence I know next to nothing other than the obvious. Rummaging thru' my book shelves I came across
"WW2 Fighting Jets" - Jeff Ethell and Alfred Price, Airlife 1994. It seems the 262 even had an Automatic Throttle Control as stated in pg54:

"On the Me 262s in service the throttles had to be advanced slowly up to 6,000 rpm to avoid burning out the jet units. Above 6,000 rpm the throttles could be pushed all the way forward at once, because an automatic fuel flow and pressure regulator prevented a too sudden increase in the amount of fuel entering the jets and a resultant overheating. By the end of the war a new regulator had been developed to control the fuel flow so that the throttles could be set at any point and the new regulator would ensure a safe and gradual acceleration of the engine to the rpm selected. Just before the war ended the new regulator had been tested and found satisfactory".

If the 6,000 rpm = 80% thrust this fits with what FLYBOYJ said earlier but it also highlights the possibility of damaging the engine if power was increase too suddenly below 6,000rpm. The fact that the Germans took precious time and resources to develop a new regulator may also imply that this was a common problem.

What are your thoughts / explanations ?

[FLYBOYJ]

In early jets from engine idle to 80% one had to be careful when moving the power levers, what the Germans were experiencing was evident on all turbine engines at the time, even those built with better nickel steels. In 2nd and 3rd generation engines there was a matter of acceleration where the engine just won't accelerate that quickly if you slam the power lever to 100% when sitting at engine idle.

This regulator you speak about was probably part of the fuel control.

[phatzo]

really anything with the tater chucker was devastating against bombers. bf109g-14 bf109k4 me163 me262
fw190 a8 its hard to say which is better because the all excelled in different areas. 163 ability to get quickly to alt 262 for speed a8 for lots 'o' guns. But lets spend a minute or two reflecting on the mossie. I would not like to be in a He 111 that gets spotted by a mossie.

[FW190D-9]

FW-190A-8s were probable the most effective. The A-8/R-2 versions were probably the most devestating. The D-9s had the pedigree of an outstanding higher altitude killer than the A-8s, but came a bit too late in small numbers. Cheers, TF.

[gepp]

Two come to mind for me FW-190A-8 and The Bf 110 i know ill probably get laughed at for saying the 110 but at night they made a mess of bomber formations.by day it was the A-8's turn.

[Civettone]

Bf 109G-14/U4/R4 had two heavy MGs and three 30mm cannons. This was to me the ultimate Kanonenboot!

Kris

[thor]

if you take the night war into account the 110 must get much respect ...

[stona]

Originally Posted by GermansRGeniuses

The BoB WAS over Europe!

Apocryphal headline, "Fog in channel. Europe cut off"

And yes,I knew what you meant.

[b0ned0me]

Originally Posted by Guns'n'Props

I really had an apparently mistaken impression that by late Sep'44 the P-51s had Jadgwaffe sorted out. Was this a singular incident or were such losses still occurring from time to time ? Is it possible that these units were the lowest or last in the bomber formation thus the most vulnerable ?

From Kassel Mission , interview with one of the survivors

We were approaching the I.P. in a southeasterly direction, where we were supposed to make a slight left turn in an east-southeasterly direction toward Kassel, but for some reason the lead ship turned almost directly east, a mistake which would take us past the target city of Kassel, too far to the north. The only explanation was that the radar man had made a grievous error.

Practically every navigator in our group picked up on this mistake almost instantly, but it was too late for the lead ship to correct to the right, as he would have run into the stream of bombers coming up from the rear. In hindsight we can say that the correct thing to do would have been to make a 360° turn to the left and come in on the rear of the second division, but Major McCoy decided to continue on east and bomb the city of Gottin-gen, about 50 miles away. As a result we lost our fighter escort, and flew alone to our own destruction.

That last sentence sums it up perfectly - Sept 1944 was no time to be pootling about over central germany in broad daylight with no escorts. One navigational error compunded by one command error, and a very bad day resulted. It shows just how finely balanced things were, as well as how often the little friends saved the day.

[Brant]

Can't argue with the ME262.