The Best Bomber of WWII: #4

[P-Popsie]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

The Mossie was a high performance light bomber with the capabilities of a decent sized medium bomber.

If you want to use the same kind of compact, high performance, unarmmed concept in place of the large (particularly daylight) strategic bombers, you need an aircraft closer in size to a B-25 or B-26.

Eliminate all defensive guns (maybe keep a few fixed in the nose) reduce crew to 3-4 and maximize bomb capacity and range. Powered by 2x turbocharged R-2800's.

Even so, you'd still probably need a bit more to get the same payload on target (probably 3 for every 2 heavies). Escorts would probably still be needed as well. But they'd still be significantly more difficult to intercept.

Not sure what the payloads for these A/C B25/26 and not sure what top speed and ceiling but yes your well on your way to how the Aluminium Monocoque Radial engined version of the DH 98 would be put together.

As a sidebar yes i was aware that there had been previous discussion in another thread its just a bit hard to keep track of who said what where now but that was who i was refering to in one of my posts earlier in this thread. I'm still a hamfist when it comes to navigating around this forum as you can see

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by P-Popsie

Each to their own as they say i think for me it boiled down to if i was flying into hostile European skys to drop bombs by daylight i'd want the fastest bloody thing i could find under my arse. I know the mossie wasn't the fastest, it'd do me though.

By the way what is the LW; Luftwaffe i'm guessing but just checking

It was a fine aircraft but as for being a war winner not at all , they could not outrun single seaters of the LW I believe much of the hype that still pervades on the Mossie
is a carry over from ww2 propaganda

[Marcel]

When it was introduced it outran both the Spitfire and the Bf109. The 2 fighters had to catch up later, which they did.

[Vincenzo]

Afaik i don't think that mosquitoes (1st mission september 1941) outrun the ~contemporary Bf 109F-4

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Vincenzo

Afaik i don't think that mosquitoes (1st mission september 1941) outrun the ~contemporary Bf 109F-4

maybe not, but the mosquito wasn't much slower either, so the intercepting Bf109 would have a hard time catching up.

[kool kitty89]

Originally Posted by P-Popsie

Not sure what the payloads for these A/C B25/26 and not sure what top speed and ceiling but yes your well on your way to how the Aluminium Monocoque Radial engined version of the DH 98 would be put together.

As a sidebar yes i was aware that there had been previous discussion in another thread its just a bit hard to keep track of who said what where now but that was who i was refering to in one of my posts earlier in this thread. I'm still a hamfist when it comes to navigating around this forum as you can see

I hadn't even realized it had switched threads at first.


The closest thing to my proposal was the XB-28, but while a high performance high altitude bomber, it was still designed with full defensive armament, so it can't be properly compared in terms of bomb load. (iirc 4,000 lbs, the B-25 having a 6,000 lb capacity, though I'll have to go check others than wiki to be sure) But in service ceiling and performance at high altitude, with two turbocharged 2,000 hp engines it had excellent altitude capabilities.

[Waynos]

The thing about the mosquito and its speed wasn't that it was 2mph faster than the equivalent German fighter or whatever. its that if the Mossie is flying 20,000ft above you at near on 400mph, or only slightly less than your own max speed, without having to climb as well, you are not going to make an intercept. When you have spent the last 2 relaxing years shooting down Blenhiems for fun this is going to spoil your day.

The plaudits for the Mosquito are well deserved. Even though my own soft spot is for the fabulous, but less spectacular Beaufighter, which is not actually a bomber, I know.

[kool kitty89]

So imagine an aircraft cruising at 300+ mph at over 25,000 ft. (with capability to reach nearly 400 mph as well) At granges comparable o a B-17, but with slightly lower payload.

[Waynos]

Sounds like the Mosquito KK, except for it being slow?

(I actually think the best bomber of WW2 was the B-29, technologically and for its last decisive action, but if I was some theoretical bomber jockey flying throughout the war I would have spent it flying Mosquitoes, if I had a choice, and after surviving 1939-40 flying Wellingtons - the best in that period that would allow the move to Mosquitoes.)

[pbfoot]

Everything i've read or heard about the Mossie was the actual speed they operated at was about 240-260 , 240 being preferable as it made navigation easier.

[P-Popsie]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

It was a fine aircraft but as for being a war winner not at all , they could not outrun single seaters of the LW I believe much of the hype that still pervades on the Mossie
is a carry over from ww2 propaganda

Granted that by 1944 the A/C being sent against the DH 98 had at least 20KM/hr + speed advantage but as someone else mentioned in this thread they had to catch up. As usual i have none of my reference stuff with me so i cant give you the stats but there arent that many cases of DH 98's being lost in direct air to air combat. Certainly there are famous cases sush as the loss of 464Sqdn commander during the Famous Amiens prison raid. But to be fair he was already right down on the deck at -500ft when he was caught by six FW 190's. Even so he aparently almost got away as he and many others had before and after.

An interesting side bar is that one of the NF squadrons had a few A/C " illegally " fitted with NO2 injection which the pilots claimed to have elevated the top speed of the bird up to 710Km/Hr+ in short bursts. This was used to close with the radar cntacts as fas as possible. Whish i could tell more about this so feel free to add if anyone knows more.

Finally as a point of pride for the DH 98 it was one of the major requirements placed by the Air ministry on De Haviland is that this new High altiude fast bomber of theirs that they were pitching did in fact outrun fighters just as claimed. Again no references {sorry} But the prototype DH 98 W4050 was in fact given an Air trial where it did outpace a PR Spitfire in front of Air ministry and Senior RAF oficers {Geoffery De Haviland Jnr was if i'm remembering correctly the Pilot } Based mostly on the strength of this demonstration the first order for 50 A/C was placed by the Air Ministry.

One more just for luck i dont think the DH 98 had that much of a public profile during the war itself { certyainly it was propodandized } {if thats even a word } After the war however is when i beleive it began to get larger than life due to a couple of interesting events. The one i will mention here is 1952 i think a DH 98 Piloted by H.B. "Mickey" Martin acheived the record for a piston engined A/C on an Atlantic crossing which i beleive still stands today { I would have to check } But you see the point i'm making i'm sure. No not a war winner on its own but then nothing is
Always great to Chew over the fat.

[P-Popsie]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

I hadn't even realized it had switched threads at first.


The closest thing to my proposal was the XB-28, .

No I unfortunately knew of the parralell threads and in fact there is another on most versitile A/C which is gettin a lot of the same attention. Like i said loose track a bit cause the subjectss are so similar.

Have vaguely heard of the XB-28 sounds interestin. The germans themselves exsperimented with an A/C which mirrored the DH 98 but i cant remember bugger all about it right now

Cheers

[P-Popsie]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Everything i've read or heard about the Mossie was the actual speed they operated at was about 240-260 , 240 being preferable as it made navigation easier.

Certainly these speeds would of been prudent for most of the 2TAF oporations as they were navigating from -150ft most of the way. Pathfinder Mossies had a bit more room to play and were conseqently operating at higher speeds. From what i can glean pilots generally Oporated their DH 98's at about 75% capacity more for fuel savings than anything else those merlins get very thirsty once they're opened right up apparently. One of the reasons that drop tanks for these A/C was such a valuable and almost unatainable item in 1943/4.

[kool kitty89]

Here's an article on the XB-28: North American XB-28 Dragon

(I'm not sure why it lists a bombload of 4,000 lbs max, but then mentioned 6,000 lbs in the description, perhaps 6,000 lbs was with external load as well?)

Note, my earlier comments on the 300 mph cruise and ~400 mph top speed were speculation an an a/c similar to the B-28, but optimized for performance, unarmmed, and reduced crew. (or a turbocharged B-26 with similar configuration)


And I'm not totally sure on the B-25's max bombload (it would depend on the model as well) I think the maximum internal capacity was 4,000 lbs (2x 2,000 lb?) Consolidated B-24 Liberator


And the B-26B could carry up to 8,000 lbs (4x 2,000 lb) internally, though normally 4,000 lbs was the maximum carried.
Martin B-26 Marauder

[P-Popsie]

Cheers Kitty would of been an intersting A/C do any pictures exsist of this beastie