best combination of manuverabilty and speed in an allied...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Erich

Gentlemen if I may add as one of the moderators on board here.

BE CIVIL !

we all come here with great expectations to learn and no-one and I mean no-one has all the answers.............

may I suggest we take more time to formulate our texts in answer and not as a mean rebuttle of words as whom are we trying to impress..........ourselves..........big deal ! there is some good and benefical information to be had here, let us not wreck this ok ?

I really do not want to see us go down a road similiar to other fourms on the net that I have had the displeasure of moderating on.

cool down, take a deep breath

Agreed!

Great info there to FBJ!

[wmaxt]

The P-38J-25/Ls slow speed roll rate is a bit slower than the P-51s but surpasses it at 325mph and passes the Fw-190 at about 340mph. It maxes out around 100deg/s at about 450mph (Lockheed numbers) though I've seen 110deg/sec claimed. This is aileron imput only, initial roll performance can be enhanced with throttle imput.

In '42 the P-38F was tested with all the AAF fighters ang was reported to turn as tightly (P-40) or better (P-39, P-47, P-51A) up to 15,000ft and the advantage got better as it went higher.

On the Docs page, is a test of a P-38F with 2 Spit IX's one high reduction(.477) and 1 with a lower reduction (.42) and the British decided the Spitfire could turn a little tighter but all other perameters the P-38 was in the middle between the Spitfires below 25,000ft where the Spitfire had more of an edge. They also noted a few moves the Spitfire couldn't follow effectively.

The late P-38J and L models were measurably better than the F was especialy at altitude.

wmaxt

[syscom3]

Is it not true that roll rates would be different as compared between sea level and 30K?

And was there a roll rate limitation from the G forces on the pilot? It wouldnt make sense to have a fast rolling plane with a pilot blacked out as compared to slower rolling plane where the pilot is still in control.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Is it not true that roll rates would be different as compared between sea level and 30K?

And was there a roll rate limitation from the G forces on the pilot? It wouldnt make sense to have a fast rolling plane with a pilot blacked out as compared to slower rolling plane where the pilot is still in control.

Thats a good question and I don't know. Having said that, one is generaly going faster at altitude, at least at first, which would tighten things up a bit.

The original F4U was much faster rolling but was slowed to better balance the controls. I have also read comments from pilots that the P-38, using differential throttle to help initate a roll, could bang your head on the canopy from the abruptness but I've never heard of an aircraft rolling fast enough to black out the pilot.

I ran across some control imput info on the P-51D and P-47D at best corner speed of 300mph+/-
P-51 3g pull = 48# and a 5g pull = 86#
P-47 3g pull = 16# and a 5g pull = 27#
I don't have numbers for the P-38 just coments that rudder and elevators were great but in early models the ailerons were very high effort which is why they used a wheel instead of a stick.

wmaxt

[syscom3]

[quote="wmaxt"]

Originally Posted by syscom3

........

I ran across some control imput info on the P-51D and P-47D at best corner speed of 300mph+/-
P-51 3g pull = 48# and a 5g pull = 86#
P-47 3g pull = 16# and a 5g pull = 27#
......wmaxt

Can you explain that a little clearer. I dont know what "48#" means.

Thanks!!!

[KraziKanuK]

# = pound(lb), so 48# = 48lb

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would love to compare that to other aircraft such as the Spitfire, Bf-109, and Fw-190.

[Udet]

For the record:

"Don't have to be aces.

#2 in XIVs got a K-4
#401 in IXs got 4 109s
#403 in XIVs got 3 109s
#414 in IXs got 3 109s

IXs - 7, XIVs - 4

Could be more but I wasted enough time..."


If the audience takes a little time, they will see Mister KrazyKanuk wrote this before I responded in the same measure. He felt he was wasting his time and got no warning.

Case closed.

Have a lovely, a fascinating day.

*smoochies*

[syscom3]

Its interesting that the P51 has a high roll rate at high speeds. Perhaps it is better than the Spitfire at speeds above 350 knots.

Now down on the deck, I would suppose speed is what would keep you out of trouble.

What allied plane was the fastest at sea level?

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Its interesting that the P51 has a high roll rate at high speeds. Perhaps it is better than the Spitfire at speeds above 350 knots.

Now down on the deck, I would suppose speed is what would keep you out of trouble.

What allied plane was the fastest at sea level?

Well the P-51s roll rate maxes out at about 95deg/s at ~300mph and drops to about 76deg/s at 450mph and I'm sure the effort is very high at those speeds. I think you'll find its more likely a high average rate.

wmaxt

[syscom3]

"The clipped wing Spitfire has a peak roll rate of 150 degs/sec at 200 knots: it is superior to the 190 until 220 knots and then runs slightly below that until also overtaken by the P-51 at 355 knots. "

I wonder if that refers to a P51D?

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by syscom3

"The clipped wing Spitfire has a peak roll rate of 150 degs/sec at 200 knots: it is superior to the 190 until 220 knots and then runs slightly below that until also overtaken by the P-51 at 355 knots. "

I wonder if that refers to a P51D?

The numbers I show for roll rate is for the P-51B. The numbers I posted for stick effort was for the P-51D model. Generaly the B model has better performance than the D but I would think the roll rate would be consistent between the two.

wmaxt

[Glider]

I admit that I have found this last few postings on the roll rates to be very interesting and I didn't expect the Spit to do as well as it did.
My thanks to all of you who have looked into this. Much appreciated

[syscom3]

I was surprised the P47 had such low force requirements. I wonder if we can find such info for more aircraft.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is what I am researching right now. Probably wont have anything till next week though, because I wont have much time this weekend.