Best Dive Bomber of WWII

[book1182]

Val all the way!!! Must I remind you of what it did at Pearl Habor??? It even had a little Stuka in it. Being that it was helped designed by the same people. Biggest notice being the fixed landing gear. It also had some of the best pilots. Their hit accuracy was something like 80% at the beginning of the war.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well, I have bought a book about the IJN fighter groups and aces, and so far, the Dauntless claims for the Zero's dont add up.

There were plenty of exaggerations on both sides apparently.

Well what information does this book have? - compare it to what Leonard could come up with...

 

[syscom3]

Im going to be scholarly about it. Im going to check with some Japanese warbirds experts to see what they say.

Erich inspired me to be cautious about accepting allied claims at face value.


Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War 2.
by Ikuiko Hata and Yasuho Izawa
translated by Don Cyril Gorham.
Naval Institute Press, 1989

 

[V-1710]

The Val had little opposition at Pearl Harbor. Didn't do too well at Midway, and was not used much after (maybe there wasn't any left?).

 

[syscom3]

The Val was responsible for damage done to the carriers, USS Yorktown (Coral Sea and Midway), USS Hornet (Santa Cruz), USS Enterprise (Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz).

It also inflicted punishment on the Royal Navy in the Indian Ocean operations in March 1942.

Another battle where it was used with great success was the Darwin raid of April 1942.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Im going to be scholarly about it. Im going to check with some Japanese warbirds experts to see what they say.

Erich inspired me to be cautious about accepting allied claims at face value.

Ah! the old master inspires many!

 

[V-1710]

Still not convinced the D3A was a better aircraft than the SBD. The Val was based on the Heinkel He-70. Here's some comparisons:
Top speed for the D3A was 267@ 20,000 ft., vs. 255 for the SBD-6 at 25,000 ft.. Max. T/O wieght was 9,519# for the SBD, vs. 8,047# for the D3A. Armament for the SBD-6 was 2 .50's in the nose, 2 .30's on a flexible mount at the rear cockpit. For the D3A, 2 7.7mm in the nose, 1 7.7 at the rear. Bomb load show a big advantage for the SBD, with 1,600# on the center rack, and up to 650# on the wings. The D3A typically carried one 551# on the center rack, with 2 132# on each wing. I think all this shows an advantage for the SBD. I am trying to evaluate only the merits of each aircraft, and not the service records, as there are usually far too many variables in combat to decisively say which aircraft was 'better'. Consider the Swordfish! On paper, an obsolete aircraft to say the least, but extremely effective in use (I give a great amount of credit to the Swordfish crews).

 

[delcyros]

If we take tactics into consideration tahn the dive attack was obsolete from mid 42 (latest) onwards. A Dive bombing was useful in times when reliable bombsights were unavaiable. From mid 42 on, almost all air forces developed reliable bombsights and other planes began to fullfill the dive bombers original role to attack a ground or sea target with (almost) pinpoint accuracy.
SBD´s , Val´s Stuka´s began to strike without entering a dive. We should rather count them from 43 onwards as tactical bombers. Referring to dive qualities and technical abilities I expect that the He-118 could beat the Ju-87 on nearly every point, but the Ju-87 was the one to enter production.
The Vengance was better than SBD but by it´s time it almost became obsolete in it´s originally intended role...

 

[syscom3]

The Dive bomber was the ship killer of the PTO.

The only time the dive bomber became obsolete in the PTO is when the IJN fleet ceased to exist.

I have heard that USN Helldiver's did quite well against Japanese industrial targets in the Carrier raids against the japanese homeland in 1945. In fact, they put more bombs on target than the B29's did.

 

[V-1710]

With regard to the He-118, I think I remember reading somewhere that the main reason the Ju-87 was selected over the He-118 was because Ernst Udet crashed the He-118 prototype due to a malfunctioning variable-pitch propeller. The Ju-87 won by default. What of the Ju-187?

 

[cheddar cheese]

The Ju-187 was seen to have little advantage over the normal -87 and therefore was not put into production...Also I think the rotating tailfin would have been a recipe for disaster...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

looked mighty fine though, by that point though the -87 was being used uncreasingly less for actual dive bombing and it's unlike the -187 would've done a huge ammount of dive bombing...........

 

[delcyros]

That´s my estimation, too. The taildesign would have become a problem.
The crash of Udet, while piloting a He-118 was a ground accident.
The SBD´s could well place more bombs than the B-29 (the Stuka dropped more bombload over russia than any other single plane).

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The SBD´s could well place more bombs than the B-29 (the Stuka dropped more bombload over russia than any other single plane).

That I doubt!!!! Look at the XX and XXI Bomber Command, Very Heavy Bombers (B-29) the numbers speak for themselves...

 

[syscom3]

I dont think any SBD's were used against the Japanese mainland. By 1945, all the fast fleet carriers had been equipped with Helldivers.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well I go for the SBD Duantless and then the Ju-87 Stuka.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well I go for the SBD Duantless and then the Ju-87 Stuka.

agree!

 

[P38 Pilot]

For me its either the JU-87G or the SDB Dauntless. It sure did a hell of damage against the Japanese Carriers at Midway!

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

can we really count the -87G as a dive bomber??

 

[P38 Pilot]

I think so...