The Best Fw-190 Variant...?

[Udet]

RG, you ask for evidence? Let it be my pleasure:

Evidence 1.

"Schlageter" Emil Lang (The Bully), flying his Fw190 A-8, fried four (4) Mustangs in quick succesion TWICE.


Evidence 2.

"Pitt" Bauer, of JG 300, flying his Fw190 A-8 destroyed 3 Mustangs in less than 6 minutes.

Evidence 3.

This time, against the P-47, which in my view deserves far greater praising than that the Mustang has got.

Egon Mayer, JG 2, flying a Butcher Bird shot down 4 P-47s in real quick succesion.


While i agree with you many pilots never knew what hit them, there are cases where of course the rule does not apply.

You are not going to suggest flights of Mustangs got "bounced" in such a manner they´d not notice their nemesis shooting down 3 or 4 of their own flock one after another are you?

Furthermore if the Mustang was "so clearly superior" to the Butcher Bird, how come most Fw190s and Bf109s engaging them -yes after taking their losses as well- would return to their base?

What kind of logical explanation do you have for this when the Mustang squadrons engaged were conducting free sweeps?

If it was so superior -additionally enjoying a true far greater range and numerical superiority on most engagements- why did not they continue to pursuit the German guys wherever they might go? Or if they did, how come they could not get them all? Perhaps because neither the Butcher Bird and the Bf109 pilots were that easy to catch?

As to the victories gained over by Mustangs by the Sturmbock kids, they were not that rare.

Originally Posted by Udet

While i agree with you many pilots never knew what hit them, there are cases where of course the rule does not apply.

But probably none of those cases.

Originally Posted by Udet

You are not going to suggest flights of Mustangs got "bounced" in such a manner they´d not notice their nemesis shooting down 3 or 4 of their own flock one after another are you?

It happened all the time, to both sides. If an enemy plane got in position behind and below a fight group, and picked off the tail end charlie, no one else might notice for quite a while.

Originally Posted by Udet

Furthermore if the Mustang was "so clearly superior" to the Butcher Bird, how come most Fw190s and Bf109s engaging them -yes after taking their losses as well- would return to their base?

"Most" combatant aircraft usually returned to base after an engagement, so this question is just silly.

Originally Posted by Udet

What kind of logical explanation do you have for this when the Mustang squadrons engaged were conducting free sweeps?

Well, first off this usually happend when the P-51's were headed home, after expending their ammo on ground targets. Also, the Luftwaffe' had a distinct advantage in that they had radar and ground spotting directing their fighters to the US aircraft. And radar tracking often could tell the German fighters that a flight would be found headed home in a given area, knowing it was pretty well spent.

Originally Posted by Udet

If it was so superior -additionally enjoying a true far greater range and numerical superiority on most engagements- why did not they continue to pursuit the German guys wherever they might go? Or if they did, how come they could not get them all? Perhaps because neither the Butcher Bird and the Bf109 pilots were that easy to catch?

Because that is an unrealistic expectation of any air combat. It is very hard to successfully pursue all enemy fighters if they are trying to escape. Also, the FW was a very good diver, and the US planes would have been loath to go low early in their sortie. And of course it was well known that German pilots would lead US fighters who did follow them down to near the ground into AA traps. And finally, even though the P-51 had great range, by the time it had gone into Germany and executed its primary mission, fuel was limited. Often the option to give up altitude and continue an extended pursuit would have meant not being able to return to base, which was hundreds of miles away.

Originally Posted by Udet

As to the victories gained over by Mustangs by the Sturmbock kids, they were not that rare.

So? You do admit the Luftwaffe' position was the advantageous position right? Flying over their own territory, having radar and ground spotters, and not having flown for hours to get into the combat area nor having hours of return flight in front of them, were all advantages to the German pilots. Offense is harder than defense - the Germans tried to do to England what the US did to Germany in the BoB, and they failed even though the task was easier!

Just look at Big Week, the US had fewer P-51's than the Luftwaffe had defensive fighters, but took fewer losses. In that week, something like 1000 Luftwaffe' fighters were destroyed, and 1/3rd of the Luftwaffe' pilots were killed. How do you explain that?

=S=

Lunatic

As for the P-47 deserving "greater praise" than the P-51, well in some respects I agree. But, it didn't have the range to take the fight to the Luftwaffe' who were hiding deep in Germany. That was something the P-51 alone was able to do.

Clearly, the Anton was superior to the P-47C (unmodified), but the P-47D with water injection enjoyed a small advantage, and with water injection and the paddle prop, a significant one.

=S=

Lunatic

[blackeagle_I]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

In that week, something like 1000 Luftwaffe' fighters were destroyed, and 1/3rd of the Luftwaffe' pilots were killed. How do you explain that?
Lunatic

Did Luftwaffe fighters suffered 1000 destroyed in that week?

Originally Posted by blackeagle_I

Did Luftwaffe fighters suffered 1000 destroyed in that week?

The "Big Week" campaign actually lasted about 5 weeks, that is what they called the start of the "kill the Luftwaffe'" campaign in late Febuary and the name has kinda stuck. I should have stated it better. Over that 5 week period, prior to the switch to tactical operations at the start of April in preperation for D-Day, the German's lost about 1000 fighters.

On February 20, 1944, five days of coordinated USAAF/RAF assaults on the German aircraft industry began, that historians later named "The Big Week". On that day, the first thousand-plane raid took place, with fighter plane factories at Brunswick, Oschersleben, Bernberg, and Leipzig being attacked. The cost of the "Big Week" was heavy, with 244 heavy bombers and 33 fighter planes being lost. However, these raids played an important role in helping to reduce the strength of the Luftwaffe, paving the way for the D-Day landings. The onset of bad weather brought an end to the "Big Week", which was merciful since crews were exhausted and losses had been high. Nevertheless, during this offensive, the back of the Luftwaffe was broken. After this date, the Luftwaffe was never able to throw up the same amount of strength that it had before, and was generally effective only on sporadic occasions or when targets of critical importance were being attacked.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b17_21.html

=S=

Lunatic

[evangilder]

There is a huge difference between 1000 planes in 1 week and 1000 planes in 5 weeks. Are those 1000 planes claimed, or 1000 confirmed with Luftwaffe records? I am not trying to nitpick, but get a clear picture, because claims versus actual kills were often quite different.

[Erich]

Big Week one of the biggest slaughters of US heavy bombers during February 1944. Historical references have tried to cover this up for 60 years and there is no true book on this interesting of subjects.

According to official Freiburg BA/MA losses reports of the JG's and ZG's during February 20-25th aka Big Week there were :

145 German crew KIA
250 German a/c shot down with 60-100 % loss

believe the lies if you will, another indication to me that American researchers have not done their homework and that US overclaiming was much more than anyone has ever thought possilbe...........

v/r E ~

[evangilder]

That is why I asked if they were claimed or verified. I know claims were very often just that, claims. I understand that some people get caught up in patriotic fervor, but in the interest of real history, the numbers should be accurate. Otherwise it paints an unrealistic picture.

[Erich]

you may find this of interest, during Big week that the US 8th AF alone claimed 376 German a/c, not counting what the US 15th AF claimed for the week.

One of the largest combined losses was over 70 US a/c on the 25th of February when the US 8th and 15th AF were assaulted in numbers of single and twin engines, many wrong ID's of Ju 88's carrying and firing rockets as well as Heinekl 111's.

for now.........

[evangilder]

Wow! Is that 70 aircraft of all types, or just the heavies?

[Erich]

all types and I do not have all totals of 15th AF heavies or fighters confirmed. Big week lasted from 20-25th of February and not another 5 weeks as the Berlin raids of the first week of March 44 are seperate and were to be the cuase in Allied eyes the demise of the Berlin factory and moral of the German populace but it did not work. In any case it probably built up the defiance heven more of the Berliners as more single 105mm and 88mm's were brought to the city ring on rail cars for future defence and the more single engine fightes were brought to the area of Jüterbog and three other airfields in defence both day and night of Berlin in 44-45.

I've studied this part of the air war both day/night for over 25 years and their is so much confusion , actually mis-information that no-one of English speaking skills has taken the time to correct losses and claims of the Allies during the heavy attacks during the winter-s[pring of 44.
One scna paperback book on big week with a ton of errors and the famous Berlin March 6 raid by Ethell which has been reprinted a half dozen times, still the authority on the raid, but what about the other days of death ? There is plenty of German archival docs available if someone would take the time for serious study the comparisions from boths sides would be quite revealing, and this is one of the prime reasons I do not loiter on the many so-called expert web-sites full of old and inaccurate findings.

This was a reason why we started up our web-site on the summer-fall battles of 1944 over the Reich. Funny how many US veterans eyes were opened up when we did correspondance via phone, first person and letter interviews and related the German documentation to them. they had no idea what was "on the other side".

Erich ♪

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Soren, would you care to provide that AFDU report? Or do you expect me to hunt it down too?

Sorry but this one isnt available on the Internet (As far as a know at least)

[evangilder]

I applaud your efforts to correct the information that is out there.

[Erich]

side notation............is everyone aware that nearly 70 US 8th AF a/c were downed by single and twin engine Luftwaffe a/c on 11 January 1944. This is documented too and actually in a new book by a Dutch author through Hikoki publications. I have been researching this air-battle with another Dutch friend for over 8 years

[Erich]

7-7-44

Blitzschlacht über Oschersleben which is covered in brief detail on our web-site. 59 US heavies shot dwon from the 8th and 15 US AF which crossed over one another's bomb route by accident, something not found in US written sources. The culprit, over 3/4r's shot down by SturmFw's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 and II.Sturm/JG 300, the remainder by Me 410B's