The Best Fw-190 Variant...?

The 1000 aircraft figure relates to Big Week and the following daylight air campaign until April 1, 1944. Also, it includes aircraft destroyed on the ground.

Erich, do you have loss figures for both sides? It would be interesting to know the total USAAF (fighters and bombers) and Luftwaffe losses for this period (Feb 20 - Apr 1). It would also be interesting to know how many USAAF aircraft were lost to fighters and how many to flak.

=S=

Lunatic

I just heard a different figure, which claims the luftwaffe' lost 1/3rd of its fighter aircraft and 1/5th of its pilots during "Big Week".

Erich, are you saying these figures are incorrect?

[Erich]

RG as I said in those 5 days my figures are from "official German Documental sources via Freiburg and Aachen, Berlin. Including inidvidual Geschwader operational histories.

If you consider what you have given there would have been absolutely no-one to put up any counter to any P-47's, P-38's and P-51's as well as fighting the Heavies. All new recruits would of either been at Schule or shot down in combat.............the Schwere Flak would of been the only thing during March and April and half of May, and we know that is quite untrue

by the way slightly getting back to the Dora production figs, there 1805 produced but it is not truley known how many went to operational units and schule

E ~

And that was largely the case. In 64 combat sorties during WWII, Chuck Yeager only saw German aircraft in flight on 5 of his sorties. Such claims of not being able to find German fighters in the air are common from early Summer 1944 till the end of the war.

The figures quoted were:

1/3rd of Luftwaffe' aircraft and 1/5th of the pilots were lost during Big Week. By the end of March, 1944, the Luftwaffe' had lost over 1000 pilots including 28 Experten.

I'm looking for good info on actual losses, so I can confirm or disprove the figures listed above, but so far, I've not found too much.

=S=

Lunatic

As for those Dora production figures, can you qualify the defintion of "production"? As we have discussed before, werknumber allocation is a very poor method for determining actual German production. So are factory accountings. Deliveries, acceptances, and of course deployments, in that order, are the much preferred data.

Pilot accounts don't seem to support the idea of anywhere near even 1000 Dora's having been in operation, let alone almost 2000. If there really were that many, where were they?

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by Soren

Sorry but this one isnt available on the Internet (As far as a know at least)

Can you give me the name, number, and date of the report? And the author if that info is available?

=S=

Lunatic

[evangilder]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

The figures quoted were:

1/3rd of Luftwaffe' aircraft and 1/5th of the pilots were lost during Big Week. By the end of March, 1944, the Luftwaffe' had lost over 1000 pilots including 28 Experten.

Where were those figures quoted? Losing 1,000 pilots? Typically, losing 1,000 pilots means that more airplanes were lost than that as some of the pilots survive. Is it 1,000 pilots, or planes? Those number seem inflated if it is aircraft, even moreso if it is pilot figures.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

As for those Dora production figures, can you qualify the defintion of "production"? As we have discussed before, werknumber allocation is a very poor method for determining actual German production. So are factory accountings. Deliveries, acceptances, and of course deployments, in that order, are the much preferred data.

Pilot accounts don't seem to support the idea of anywhere near even 1000 Dora's having been in operation, let alone almost 2000. If there really were that many, where were they?

=S=

Lunatic

If you had read what he posted you would have seen that he said of the number of Dora's built it is unknown how many actually made into line units or to the schools. But I myself also have never heard of anymore then 700 being built also, so I do not know either.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

And that was largely the case. In 64 combat sorties during WWII, Chuck Yeager only saw German aircraft in flight on 5 of his sorties. Such claims of not being able to find German fighters in the air are common from early Summer 1944 till the end of the war.

The figures quoted were:

1/3rd of Luftwaffe' aircraft and 1/5th of the pilots were lost during Big Week. By the end of March, 1944, the Luftwaffe' had lost over 1000 pilots including 28 Experten.

I'm looking for good info on actual losses, so I can confirm or disprove the figures listed above, but so far, I've not found too much.

=S=

Lunatic

That was mostly do to the fact that the factories that built the fighters were put out of action for several months because of The Big Week.

Big Week was the name given later to the coordinated six-day air offensive (ARGUMENT) launched in February 1944 by RAF Bomber Command and the US Strategic Air Forces in Europe (USSTAF) as part of the Combined Bomber Offensive.

USSTAF had been formed under General Spaatz on 1 January 1944. It comprised the Eighth and Ninth US Army Air Forces, based in the UK, and the Fifteenth USAAF which was based in Italy. The previous year Eighth USAAF had suffered heavy losses during raids on Schweinfurt and elsewhere. Consequently, US daylight raids deep into Germany had been suspended until long-range fighters to escort the bombers had been delivered, and good weather made the raids viable.



When both these conditions were met, starting on 20 February 1944, more than 3,800 USSTAF bombers and 2,351 from RAF Bomber Command dropped between them nearly 20,000 tons of bombs on German fighter factories and associated industries, the British at night, the Americans during the day. American losses amounted to 254 aircraft, including 28 fighters, while RAF Bomber Command lost 157. These were heavy losses- Eighth USAAF had a rate of attrition for February which amounted to almost 20%-but Big Week put German fighter production back two months. Its purpose had also been to begin the attrition of German fighter pilots to undermine the Luftwaffe's continuing will to resist. In this Big Week was successful as a precursor to the escorted raids that followed it (see Graphs 1 and 2). From that time the daylight bombing campaign was only partially countered and during the Normandy landings in June 1944 (OVERLORD) only a handful of German aircraft were immediately available to oppose them.
http://www.valourandhorror.com/BC/Backg/Big_week.htm

[KraziKanuK]

Me262 production - 1433 produced, 936 delivered. (611 damaged or lost due to Allied causes > 114 repaired)

This was done under American supervision. Do you dispute these numbers RG?

.............

from http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/w...dex_table.html

Table 159, ETO losses Feb 1944

heavy bombers - 271

a/c - 170
AAA - 81
other - 20

lt/med bombers - 19

a/c - 4
AAA - 14
other - 1

fighters - 103

a/c - 69
AAA - 13
other - 21

Table 167, e/a claimed destroyed ETO

Feb 1944 - 741

Table 159, ETO losses Mar 1944

heavy bombers - 345

a/c - 178
AAA - 112
other - 55

lt/med bombers - 15

a/c - 2
AAA - 94
other - 4

fighters - 191

a/c - 54
AAA - 46
other - 91

Table 167, e/a claimed destroyed ETO

Mar 1944 - 910

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thats a lot of downed aircraft.

[Erich]

KK it must be my Opa eyes but I do not fully understand your tables. Are you stating that in some figures for daylights ops only very few US heavies ? shot down by fighters, and this is from US tabletures ?

RG yes it is confimred through German sources 1805 Doras produced but as I saiad not know what by werk nummer or even how many issued to front line Schule or Operational Geschwader. In another posting I have shown as to what operative units the Dora 9 and 11 were given to and what was on hand but I did not state as I do not know just how many in numbers......in fact no one knows as it is never explained nor stated. In ragerdance to one particualr heavily engaged unit IV./JG 26 ex III./JG 54 the first unit that accepted the type. Neither unit in their written histories tell just how many a/c came on board. All we have is a sketch of the over all loses by diary.

I also can give the number via German sources from 20 February to March1944's end of claims and losses by total numbers but you must give me a couple of weeks as there are other priorities like work..............puke !

[KraziKanuK]

Erich,

Table 159, ETO losses Feb 1944

heavy bombers - 271

by a/c - 170 (62.7%)
by AAA - 81 (29.9%)
by other - 20 (7.4%)

Table 159, ETO losses Mar 1944

heavy bombers - 345

by a/c - 178 (51.6%)
by AAA - 112 (32.5%)
by other - 55 (15.9%)

Does the by help?

Yes, these are USAAF numbers from Army Air Forces Statistical Digest.

[Erich]

har har the info is right in front of me as I just pulled it up......and I have anothe 1/2 hr before I blast off into space....

giddy with excitement

Veluste im Einsatz

20 Feb.

44 kia 74 a/c lost

21 Feb.

24 kia 30 a/c lost

22 Feb.

25 kia 53 a/c lost

24 Feb.

33 kia 45 a/c lost

25 Feb.

19 kia 48 a/c lost //// Big week ends
__________________________________________________ __

For all missions flown in 1944 and this includes non combat ops and inclusion of accidnets at base, schule, etc........

Verluste der Tagjagdverbände März 1944, nur Reichsverteidigung, West und Süd

299 kia
5 captured
143 wounded
10 missing

583 aircraft shot down and with 60-100% loss
284 a/c with minor damage

21 aircarft lost on base due to accidents as total write offs.
34 aircraft at base with minor damage.

a/c and personell losses from the holdings of RL 2 listings at Freiburg, Verlustlisten
__________________________________________________ ________

if my math is correct.............

that is: 444 crewmen killed
that is: 833 Luftwaffe aircraft shot down in combat as complete loss.

1000 ? I suppose it is close .....according to what US sources are investigated and quoted the last 30 odd years.

thoughts ?

[evangilder]

That's still a 17% difference. I suppose you could say they rounded, but I have a feeling they rounded kills up and losses down.