The Best Fw-190 Variant...?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

These figures basically agree with what I'm saying, only about 300 or so Me262's saw action in WWII.

And no one here was contesting that. We were contesting that more then 300 were built. Nobody ever said that more then 300 saw service.

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

You mean they sent all the thousands of pilots in the area of on Furlow right at the time they were expecting an invasion? Do you really believe that?

Whoever said that there were thousands of pilots in the area?

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

And no one here was contesting that. We were contesting that more then 300 were built. Nobody ever said that more then 300 saw service.

And I never disputed that around 1450 were officially produced. I just don't think that a plane can really be counted as "produced" unless it is flyable. As I said before, about 2400 airframes were laid down, about 1450 were produced, about 800 were delivered (many with non-working engines), only about 300 saw combat service plus a number of prototypes flew as test planes (perhaps 50?).

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Whoever said that there were thousands of pilots in the area?

[/quote]

Well, if you look at German fighter production from Nov. 1943 to Apr. 1944, there should have been well over 10,000 new fighter planes available. If the Luftwaffe' was not suffering heavy losses of planes and pilots during this period - where were they on D-Day?

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Well, if you look at German fighter production from Nov. 1943 to Apr. 1944, there should have been well over 10,000 new fighter planes available. If the Luftwaffe' was not suffering heavy losses of planes and pilots during this period - where were they on D-Day?

Many were stuck on the ground because of fuel shortage, and even more pilots were on furlow.

You'll be surprised how much the LW was restricted by fuel shortage during the 44-45 period !

Fuel shortages would not have really started for aircraft bases until mid-summer or so. The strategic fuel resources were not specifically targeted in a big way until after D-Day. Tactical fuel resources were targeted, but again, why wasn't the Luftwaffe' defending those?

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Fuel shortages would not have really started for aircraft bases until mid-summer or so. The strategic fuel resources were not specifically targeted in a big way until after D-Day. Tactical fuel resources were targeted, but again, why wasn't the Luftwaffe' defending those?

RG the German army was in fuel shortage already in 43 ! Why else do you think it was so important for the German army to get those oil resources in the Caucasus ?

Oil was in short supply in terms of supporting major ground offensives, but there was pleanty for conducting defensive air operations. The Luftwaffe' didn't suffer from such shortages until the Fall of 1944.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Well, if you look at German fighter production from Nov. 1943 to Apr. 1944, there should have been well over 10,000 new fighter planes available. If the Luftwaffe' was not suffering heavy losses of planes and pilots during this period - where were they on D-Day?

Please tell me you dont actually believe that those 10000 were all in Normandy? Lets see there was the Eastern Front, the Med, and the air defence of Germany.

Of course not. But really, they were no where to be found on the W. front. The defense of Germany in late summer 1944 consisted of something like 700 fighters. Of those 10,000, you'd expect at least a few thousand to have been allocated to the W. front. Had the Germans been able to put up 3000 fighters to intercept the US bomber formations, they'd have wiped out those formations.

The only logical explanation here is that the Luftwaffe' did not have the planes or pilots available to mount such interceptions, or to operate against the allies in Normandy during D-day. The only logical explanation for that would be losses.

=S=

Lunatic

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There were two complete Jagd Geschwader in the vicinity of Normandy on D-Day and most of the pilots were on leave back in Germany. A 3rd JG (I believe it was JG II/3 was on its way to Normandy on June 6, 1944 but did not arrive on time and when it did arrive there airfield had been destroyed and they could not land there.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

There were two complete Jagd Geschwader in the vicinity of Normandy on D-Day and most of the pilots were on leave back in Germany. A 3rd JG (I believe it was JG II/3 was on its way to Normandy on June 6, 1944 but did not arrive on time and when it did arrive there airfield had been destroyed and they could not land there.

And how many planes is in a JG?

[KraziKanuK]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

And how many planes is in a JG?

JG = 3 or 4 Gruppen (wing)
1 Gruppen = 3 or 4 staffel (squadron)
1 staffel = 12 a/c

each stab = 4 a/c (JG stab and each Gruppen stab)

Okay, I have some figures:

West
Jan-May 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1491, losses = 5694
Jun-Oct 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1135, losses = 6412

Those are pretty nasty loss rates!

=S=

Lunatic

[lesofprimus]

Are those combat losses or operational losses???????

[the lancaster kicks ass]

oh my god you're back!!

where you been les?? you here to stay?? and more to the point did you miss me??

[KraziKanuK]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Okay, I have some figures:

West
Jan-May 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1491, losses = 5694
Jun-Oct 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1135, losses = 6412

Those are pretty nasty loss rates!

=S=

Lunatic

And American losses for 1944 was 15,675 a/c vs Germany.