The Best Fw-190 Variant...?

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

You need to expand your reading RG.

Many Allied pilots have commented on that the only late war a/c that gave them any real trouble was the Dora. It is a wonder that any have heard of the Spit XIV since there was less than 1/2 the war time number (~750) produced than for the Dora(~1800).

What was not so optimal aboutf the Dora's coolant system?

Where do you get that 1800 figure for the Dora. I've reaseached the plane a few years ago, especially the cooling system, and I could only find evidence of less than 900 Dora models of all types delivered and fewer than that deployed (perhaps 600-750?). 440 mph performance was with GM1 boost, which there is no credible evidence was ever installed on a combat unit. Maximum speed using MW50 boost was 426 mph, and MW50 could not be used above 16,500 feet (though maximum speed was still achieved at just over 20,000 feet).

About 900 Spit XIV's were delivered to front line units before the end of the war.

As for the Dora cooling system...

1) It sits centered behind the prop (as do radial engines) which means a minimum 20% reduction in airflow over free stream air. Because the air is slowed down by 20+%, it is not sufficiently fast for climb cooling. To overcome this, a large bullet spinner is used, the air flowing around the spinnner is sped up. But this in turn is not optimal for high-speed cooling. A compromise had to be made in high speed cooling to provide sufficient climb speed cooling.

2) The annular design is fitted parallel to the airflow rather than perpendicular to it. This is not optimal because air passing through the forward part of the radiator gets hot and cannot pick up as much heat from the rear of the radiator.

There were actually two radiator systems for the Dora series. One was called the "segmented ring radiator", which was one of the most efficient radiator systems of the war and probably overcame most of the deficits. However, it was extremely expensive to produce, as each ring had to be hand fitted and built onto the engine block, and it was nearly impossible to repair in the field and was only used on prototypes and perhaps a few combat aircraft. Almost all the production Dora's had the annular radiator, which was much cheaper to produce and could be serviced in the field, but was no where near as efficient as the segmented ring design.

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Lunatic

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Everything I have read confirms what Udet is saying about the evolution of the Fw-190 culminating in the Ta-152. I am not convinced that the P-51H was the greatest high alltitude aircraft produced in WW2 because it did not match up against a Ta-152H. The Dora was a magnificent aircraft and so was the Ta-152. Everything I have read about it says so and everything about the 152 leads to saying that it was the best high alltitude fighter to hit service during WW2.

Well, who put the "extreme high altitude" requirement on the P-51H?

Well, we really don't know about the TA. It didn't see enough action, especially at high altitude, to have much of an evaluation on it. It was really just a combat prototype, rushed into service because of Germany's desperate position.

As for the Dora9, I agree it was a very fine fighter and competitive with its rivals, but there is nothing to indicate it was "superior". It seems to me this plane was really tuned for combat in the sea level to 28,000 foot range.

Everything I see indicates the F4U-4 was superior in just about every critical aspect - it was faster, climbed better, had at least as much firepower and more trigger time, was more durable, and turned better.

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Lunatic

[Soren]

Oh for christs sake RG, would you stop that Pro-U.S. attitude !!

Every U.S. plane is a "WINNER" in your eyes, and you have a very hard time seeing their shortcomings ! While you have very easy time seeing bad things about Axis aircraft !

If the Fw-190's and 109's were so bad compared to the Allied fighters, then how come they did so well considdering their situation ?

Germany had so many pilots flying the 190's and 109's who scored over 50 kills on the W-front, that it if they were flying "Inferior" planes these scores would have been TOTALLY impossible !

As for the Reference on the FW-190's and their seperate abilities; Go read every detailed book about it, and I will almost Garantee you that it is mentioned !

and the longer rear fuselage with no significant increase in elevator area implies a reduced rate of turn.

I hope after re-reading this comment made by you, you will realize how stupid it was !

First of all the elevator area on the 190 wasnt that small, as it was very wide, but narrow. And secondly this elevator area has nothing to do with the 190's ability to turn !

Think about it, if all you needed for a better turn-rate was to increase the elevator area then it most certainly would have been made large on every fighter ! It just aint that easy !

The A6M "Zero" had a very small elevator area, but it outturned every Allied fighter it met !

[KraziKanuK]

No RG, only ~750 Spit XIVs were delivered before VE-Day as I just resently had to go through StH and had a look at the serial numbers. A goodly proportion of those 750 were on ships going to other theatres.

Well you had better revise your Dora data base as the number produced was 1826.

Strange that the V21 exhibited low coolant temperatures during testing, dispite being, according to, not being very efficient.

Originally Posted by Soren

Oh for christs sake RG, would you stop that Pro-U.S. attitude !!

Every U.S. plane is a "WINNER" in your eyes, and you have a very hard time seeing their shortcomings ! While you have very easy time seeing bad things about Axis aircraft !

If the Fw-190's and 109's were so bad compared to the Allied fighters, then how come they did so well considdering their situation ?

Germany had so many pilots flying the 190's and 109's who scored over 50 kills on the W-front, that it if they were flying "Inferior" planes these scores would have been TOTALLY impossible !

The F4U-4 never served in the ETO. The P-47M and N's only served in tiny numbers. The P-51 and P-47D had already beaten the Germans, there was no need to post the best new fighters to the ETO in 1945.

Defense is easier than offense. The Germans were defending against allied aircraft that had flown hundreds of miles into enemy territory. The advantage lay entirely with the Germans.

Originally Posted by Soren

I hope after re-reading this comment made by you, you will realize how stupid it was !

First of all the elevator area on the 190 wasnt that small, as it was very wide, but narrow. And secondly this elevator area has nothing to do with the 190's ability to turn !

My point is there was no difference between the elevator on the 190A vs the 190D. The size is not important, only that it is the same on both planes.

Originally Posted by Soren

Think about it, if all you needed for a better turn-rate was to increase the elevator area then it most certainly would have been made large on every fighter ! It just aint that easy !

Of course there is more too it. Making the elevator too large means the pilot will not be able to work it at high speeds. There is an optimal size for a given aircraft, and this must also take into acount the leverage rations involved in the controls.

Originally Posted by Soren

The A6M "Zero" had a very small elevator area, but it outturned every Allied fighter it met !

Says who? W.r.t. the size and geometry used, the Zero elevator was large.

But anyway, that is beside the point. The issue is that the Dora and Anton elevators were the same size.

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

No RG, only ~750 Spit XIVs were delivered before VE-Day as I just resently had to go through StH and had a look at the serial numbers. A goodly proportion of those 750 were on ships going to other theatres.

Something like 956 were produced during the war. Perhaps only 750 were deployed before VE day.

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Well you had better revise your Dora data base as the number produced was 1826.

Care to give a source? And don't give the number of assigned werknumbers, as we know that is not a reliable method of counting. Every source I've seen says less than 900 were delivered, and not all that were delivered saw combat.

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Strange that the V21 exhibited low coolant temperatures during testing, dispite being, according to, not being very efficient.

Under what conditions? Low coolant temp problems during cruise don't matter.

Also, the V21 was a prototype, so it probably used the segmented ring radiators. Many of the prototypes used this radiator.

[Soren]

The F4U-4 never served in the ETO. The P-47M and N's only served in tiny numbers. The P-51 and P-47D had already beaten the Germans, there was no need to post the best new fighters to the ETO in 1945.

Errr... where did this come from ? I never stated the F4U-4 being available in the ETO !

Defense is easier than offense.

Yeah on the ground, but it really doesnt matter much in the air, there the numbers count !

The Germans were defending against allied aircraft that had flown hundreds of miles into enemy territory. The advantage lay entirely with the Germans.

You crack me up RG !

What your saying is that the TOTALLY outnumbered and fuel starving German Luftwaffe had the advantage !

RG there are "Finnish" 109 aces who have higher scores than the highest scoring Allied ace !

My point is there was no difference between the elevator on the 190A vs the 190D. The size is not important, only that it is the same on both planes.

And your point is ?

The "Dora" has a longer tail section optimizing its center of gravity, giving it the Advantage over the "Anton" in a T&B fight.

Says who? W.r.t. the size and geometry used, the Zero elevator was large.

RG the elevators on the Zero werent at all big ! The stabilizers were huge though.

[KraziKanuK]

The V21 had the same rad as the D-9. The D-13 had the other type.

Well you can go through StH and count the number of Spit XIVs produced, for I am not.

As for you references on Dora production, they are out of date. It was a posted on another board, taken from a German book, pg 438.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

As for you references on Dora production, they are out of date.

Thats probably because they are from History Channel

[Udet]

Further down my previous idea:

All of Kurt Tank´s machines were superb.

The Fw190 A´s, the A8 for instance, made a superior plane to the P-51.
It was only at high altitude where the Mustangs could experience less trouble fighting the Butcher Bird.

The bulk of the victories of the Mustangs over the Butcher Bird and the Bf 109 were by conducting the classical bouncing. A totally valid method to defeat your enemy.

Ever heard the famous phrase: "in love, as well as in war, absolutely everything is valid"?

Valid. Absolutely. You are there to beat your enemy with complete disregard of the means.

But an entirely different story is to affirm the Mustangs defeated the Fw190 by means of technical superiority. That, you can not have it, for it was not true.

The versions which followed, Long Nose and the Ta152, simply filled the high altitude gap of their preceding relative, and continued to maintain clear superiority over the Mustang.

The most solid argument the allies display in sort of a desperate attempt to minimize the Ta 152 is that there are no recorded facts or evidence to confirm the 152s ever engaged the Mustangs.

The Ta 152 was properly tested; tests which got documented and the outcome was as transparent as Caribbean sea water: it was a superior plane to even the Long Nose.

Saw combat in limited numbers and a plane with superb high altitude performance chewed the soviet Yaks at tree top level dogfïghts, an altitude where the Yaks are frequently considered as the best.

It is quite clear in my case. The most brilliant evolution belongs to Herr Tank creations.

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

The V21 had the same rad as the D-9. The D-13 had the other type.

How do you know this. The first Dora's prototypes and I think the first try at production had the segmented ring radiators. They then tried to produce and field these but found they were too expensive to build and imposible to maintain. I doubt the D-13 had the segmented ring radiator, by then they'd given up on it.

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Well you can go through StH and count the number of Spit XIVs produced, for I am not.

956 were produced. How many were accepted, delivered, and deployed before VE day I do not know, but 700-750 seems reasonable.

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

As for you references on Dora production, they are out of date. It was a posted on another board, taken from a German book, pg 438.

Page 438 of what book? That someone posted such info on another board out of an unknown book means exactly what?

The problem is that some people think assignment of werknumbers signifies production. It is clear this is not valid. Then their are acual records of units charged for, but this is not valid either. What counts is units actually accepted, delivered, and deployed.

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Lunatic

Originally Posted by Soren

Thats probably because they are from History Channel

Bite me Soren!

The only info I quote from THC or TMC are comments from actual WWII pilots and soldiers. I never quote their historian's analysis as it is often flawed.

So now you think we should take your word over an actual Luftwaffe Ace and a Tiger I crewman? Ha ha ha!

That's total BS. The P-51 was simply a whole lot faster than the Butcher Bird. As long as they stayed fast they had the advantage, and there was no way the FW190A could overcome it.

The P-51 was made to "bounce" the enemy. You're trying to diminsh this by implying that "other than that" the P-51 was inferior is silly. P-51's flew over 500 miles into German held territory and beat the FW's over their own ground. That is the definition of superiority.

And Udet, have you ever actually seen one of these glowing test reports of the TA152? Or have you simply read second and third hand comments about what the test pilots are supposed to have said about it?

I have tried to aquire those test reports, w/o any luck. I even paid for an FIA search for them - no meaningful results were forthcomming.

[KraziKanuK]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

How do you know this. The first Dora's prototypes and I think the first try at production had the segmented ring radiators. They then tried to produce and field these but found they were too expensive to build and imposible to maintain. I doubt the D-13 had the segmented ring radiator, by then they'd given up on it.

956 were produced. How many were accepted, delivered, and deployed before VE day I do not know, but 700-750 seems reasonable.

Page 438 of what book? That someone posted such info on another board out of an unknown book means exactly what?

The problem is that some people think assignment of werknumbers signifies production. It is clear this is not valid. Then their are acual records of units charged for, but this is not valid either. What counts is units actually accepted, delivered, and deployed.

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Lunatic

You think? Oh well. Got any documantation for proof? III./JG54 never commented on overheating, though it did comment on some oil leakage, when converting to the D-9. Test reports by Rechlin of production D-9s don't mention any cooling or maintainance problems either.

If I knew the name of the book I would have said so. The person who posted the production list is involved with White 1 so there is no reason to doubt the numbers. Focke_Wulf alone had produced 1056 Doras by the end of March 1945. To these you can add those produced by the Consortium and Fiesler. (Genst.Gen.Qu.6 Abt (III C))

BTW, the Fw190A production is 13,291.

There was no WNr listed, at all. In the same vain, 750 Spit XIVs were NOT accepted, deleivered AND deployed.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Bite me Soren!

And your saying I can't take a joke ! Hahaha !

So now you think we should take your word over an actual Luftwaffe Ace and a Tiger I crewman? Ha ha ha!

Not at all, thats why I brought up all the quotes from WW2 pilots !