Which was the best night fighter?

[HoHun]

Hi Erich,

>also RAF crews swore they witnessed jet flyable He 219's as well as Me 163 Komets at night plus the Me 262 was supposed seen flyable and operable during late summer of 44 at night............nonsense but we have the reports anyway of all the above

Roger that The thing is, the "impossible" aircraft sightings were most likely mis-identified real aircraft, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to speculate that the "impossible" flying disks of light might have been mis-identified flare rounds.

But as I said, it's just my personal hypothesis ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Erich]

impossible probably but who knows what can actually play during a winter or summer nights eve with bizarre weather conditions, pilot/crew fatigue of many missions. As I mentioned illuminated Flak rounds in the form of 88 and 105mm were standard ,

One to use during wilde sau missions for the benefit of the LW night crews.
Two to blind RAF crewmen of the heavies
Three ........ I'll think of soemthing

[16KJV11]

Was it really necessary for the Americans to develop an effective night fighter?

[16KJV11]

Didn't the Japs try their hand at nightfighters with the Gekko?

[Civettone]

Yes. They tried a couple of night fighters but none were equiped with radar IIRC.

Kris

[brickhistory]

Originally Posted by 16KJV11

Was it really necessary for the Americans to develop an effective night fighter?

In hindsight, perhaps not, for the ETO. Since the British,by agreement with the US, shouldered the bulk of the night fighting duties there, and did a great job of it.

An effective, carrier-based night fighter for the Pacific was a necessity, I believe.

However, at the time of first go-ahead, 1941, yes, it was a prudent decision to develop the P-61 and the SCR-720/Mk X AI radar that went in it (and most British night fighters of the late and post-war periods as well).

[Neto]

Ju 88 it is the best night fighter certainly, well this is my opinion

[fer-de-lance]

Yes. They tried a couple of night fighters but none were equiped with radar IIRC.

The standard radar equipment for the Gekkō was the Toshiba FD-2 (500MHz, 4-yagi array, range 3km against aircraft with 0.3deg resolution).

[luftlover]

this is my first post, and I hope I haven't posted on a dead thread. hello all.

I'll admit from the start I like the he 219(perhapes to much for my good) so if I'm biased toward the aircraft I hope you'll understand. But I will challenge the ulmighty erich in his posting "the he 219 uhu was a dog in sheeps clothing"(and Ive edgucated miself as much as posible on the subgect, thnk you)

I do find most information on the he 219 never mentioning a fault with the aircraft, which is a little disconcerting. but some of Erichs arguements on pg 1 of this disscusion do not make sense

for one he says that the side 20mm caused side blindness. Why would they? They're mounted behind the pilot. admittedly the tracers came close to the pilot, but compared to the mosquito that had 4 MG right in front of the cocpit(can't spell) and the me 110 that had 2 30mm cannons right in front, it cant be worse (the later misq. had them deleated to make room for radar)

2, engines were unreliable, DB 603 powered many aircraft, including the Do 217 N&M, Do 335, Me 410 and Ta 152C. Underpowered, in later models, yes. the never-put-in-production B model was to be powered by Jumo 222(an engine with a troubled history), apparently an A-7/r6 reached 435 mph on this engine

3, later models did have the FuG 218 Neptun radar (not sure on which, perhapes source error).

4, in reference to 2, reliability issues, the first in action were pre production model A-0, which is sure to have issues. the A-5 was the first main production model. AND 6 uhu's were assembeled in the field. how could the reliability be that much of an issue when they can actualy assemble them from spare parts? the uhu was liked by both pilots and matenence crews:quote

5, Luffwaffe non-acceptance=milch non-acceptace. He wanted emphasise on models already in production. this was more timely, and doesn't seem to reflect on bad performance of the he 219 (he also had a personal grudge against henkel). he empasized production on the FW misq. and ju-388, none of which reach opperation.

overal it was faster, more heavly armed, and more manuverable then the ju-88G. The ju made up for the speed issue by having increadible range though. And one of the best reasons it was a good nf was its ability to accept more equipment without effecting handeling/performance. but one argument is that the ju-88 had a rear fireing gun. WHEN HAS A HAND AIMED REAR FIRING GUN BEEN EFFECTIVE? tail warning radar should do the trick(personal oppinion)
the uhu did have an issue with high wing loading, but the lanc flew under 20,000 ft, and it made it quite manuverable. Ex. a stirling had high wing loading and could out turn a ju 88
I agree the uhu in later models was overloaded and definatly not a misquito killer, but I believe it was better then the ju-88G

now that i've lobed my few arguments, i shall now seal the hatch, retreat to my bunker, and await with trepidation the coming bombardment.

[Erich]

your stepping in the quicksand man ..........

geez just read what I have written and accept it. The real reason why the German craft is still thought of as the hottest thing since buttered toast is because of it's looks. When I got interested in and before I knew I had a relative serving in the German LW night fighter force I had a luv for the He 219A as I thought the same as you and in fact since 1964 it was the top dog in my book for about 10 years until I furthered my pursuit in Germany

[luftlover]

jee, whats the point in argueing if the other person won't argue

have a relitive in the night fighter force, man, wish my family history was as interesting as that. My trump card (and only card) is i have one relitive that flew a b-29. to bad he was shot down.

anyway, before we start swapping war stories I WILL accept the he 219 wasn't top dog IF you start offering proof. Looking up the He 219, it looks like you against the world.

now I dont want you to rehash the same old thing over and over, and if you could direct me to where this has been posted before, I would be most grateful

probably in my mind the uhu will trump all others do to its looks and I will readily admit the ju 88G was a fine airplane, but I'm stubborn and willing to admit it

come on erich, I know you have the artillery to blow me in to sub-obit. why do you hold your fire, man, why?

I reject your reality and subtitute my own.

Quicksand! dang hatch won't open, nooooooooooo!

sorry, to much fun

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by luftlover

this is my first post, and I hope I haven't posted on a dead thread. hello all.

Welcome

Originally Posted by luftlover

for one he says that the side 20mm caused side blindness. Why would they? They're mounted behind the pilot. admittedly the tracers came close to the pilot, but compared to the mosquito that had 4 MG right in front of the cocpit(can't spell) and the me 110 that had 2 30mm cannons right in front, it cant be worse (the later misq. had them deleated to make room for radar)[/quoe]

I am not sure if this is the reason why or not but even if hte cannons are behind the pilot the flash can cause blindness at night.

How do I know this because I have experience with night firing operations from aircraft. Granted it is modern but I have experience with it.

Granted also the blindness only lasts for a fraction of a second but in combat that is eneogh to make a mistake and be shot out of the sky.

The DB 603 was a fine engine but it was not the greatest for high alltitude oparations. This coupled with the Uhus short wing left for not the greatest performance at high alltitude. Where were the bombers flying? At High Altitude. Why do you think the Ta 152H was not powered by the DB 603. It was for High Alltitude Operations while the Ta 152C was not meant for High Alltitude.

Also remember that performance of every aircraft varies at different alltitudes. Therefor what alltitude did the He 219 achieve its best performance? I doubt that the He 219A-7 could achieve 385 mph at the alltitude that was needed.

AS for your later production only the prototype was fitted with a Jumo 222 and the rest to were be fitted with DB 603 agains. So this arguement about the later varient is a would have, could have, should have but did not and therefore does not matter.

That is not necessarily a good thing. Field maint and construction can cause problems. Natural elements can get inside of places where they do not belong. Rust can become a factor because of areas that should not be exposed to the elements now are. You do not have the proper construction jigs and materials to properly construct an aircraft.

Dont take me wrong. Field maintenance must be done (trust me I know I am an aircraft maintainer) and is a must but to build aircraft in the field is not a very desirable thing.

the uhu was liked by both pilots and matenence crews:quote

I am not going to agree or disagree with you because frankly I dont have info to support this or not.

However can you please post sources and facts that show that this is true.

[quoe="luftlover"] He wanted emphasise on models already in production. this was more timely,

How is emphasis on aircraft that are allready in production more timely?

Originally Posted by luftlover

and doesn't seem to reflect on bad performance of the he 219

Please show how the performance was up to par at all alltitudes.

Originally Posted by luftlover

and more manuverable then the ju-88G.

Negative the He 219 had high wing loading and its maneuverability was not that great. The Ju 88G also had a better turn radius.

Originally Posted by luftlover

the uhu did have an issue with high wing loading, but the lanc flew under 20,000 ft, and it made it quite manuverable.

How does flying under 20,000 ft make it more maneuverable?

Originally Posted by luftlover

I agree the uhu in later models was overloaded and definatly not a misquito killer, but I believe it was better then the ju-88G

That could very well possibly be true, however the He 219 was a would have, could have, should have but did not aircraft.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by luftlover

jee, whats the point in argueing if the other person won't argue

No need to roll eyes at someone and start becoming insulting. Especially when you just joined the forum.

Originally Posted by luftlover

anyway, before we start swapping war stories I WILL accept the he 219 wasn't top dog IF you start offering proof. Looking up the He 219, it looks like you against the world.

How about you show some actual factual proof and try and change our minds. You have not done that yet.

[Erich]

there are at least 2 threads this being one were I gave proof.

your # 3 is not correct as the He 219 in all variants never topped out above the FuG 220d set. rear warning radar was not standard equipment on the He 219 like the Ju 88G-6. I can tell you the Uhu crews wish they had it a their ratio of flights to being shot down by Mossie intruders were terrible.
the uhu also did not have a rear facing mg 131 and again the two man crew wish they had it. there are confirmation of Mossie being shot down if not driven off by the effective fire of the .50 cal in the Ju 88G and even the twin MG 81's of the Bf 110G-4's.

I./NJG 1 had the heavier 3cm in most cases removed from the UHU as it had already been proven that 4 2cm was effective enough. ace O. Fries had 4 2cm only on his A-2. he destroyed 3 Lancasters on the night of November 6, 44 his last victories. Also his crew, including himself ejected a minimum of 2 times, his BF 3 times the most of any NF crewman.
The a/c and I am going over this again was of extreme danger to bail out from, do I really need to say why with a forward cockpit and at times the ejection system malfunctioned sending the crew through the canopy......
The a/c was long and it was wide, a very characteristic form in flight at night, the maneuverability of the craft was not good, the engines were still have teething probs even into 1945, in fact there were no kills at all for the gruppe in the last year of the war that I can find in their claims listing from Germany.

there are other things as well but do I need to include them ........ go through the archiv's here or reread the whole thread

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am sure that was a typo Erich. The Ju 88 never had .50 Cals. That was an American weapon.