Which was the best night fighter?

[Lucky13]

Nothing will get you as far as when you show respect..... Get well soon Erich!

[parsifal]

It looks to me that he got the boot, not for his comment about the P-38, but simply because he told a mod, in no uncertain terms, to bugger off. That is why I thought he was a dope.

I have had one or two disagreements on this forum, with mods, but the disagreement always is subjective (relating to the material being discussed). I think because of that there has never been any suggestion of kicking me off. It is just a matter of common sense, try and treat people the way you want to be treated, and dont get into a personal slanging match.

If that doesnt work, then so be it....

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by parsifal

It looks to me that he got the boot, not for his comment about the P-38, but simply because he told a mod, in no uncertain terms, to bugger off. That is why I thought he was a dope.

I have had one or two disagreements on this forum, with mods, but the disagreement always is subjective (relating to the material being discussed). I think because of that there has never been any suggestion of kicking me off. It is just a matter of common sense, try and treat people the way you want to be treated, and dont get into a personal slanging match.

If that doesnt work, then so be it....

It doesn't get simpler than that! Well said!

[FlexiBull]

Not sure if I should post this, so apologies

I always told my pupils at school not to rely on the Internet unless they could verify the source.

I guess the guy's attitude got him the chop, but put "p 38m" into your browser and what comes up is this

"Lockheed P-38M Lightning
Last revised June 13, 1999


Early in 1943, at least two unidentified P-38Fs were modified in the field by the Fifth Air Force as single-seat night fighters by fitting an SCR540 radar with yagi antennae on the nose on both sides of the central nacelle, and above and below the wings. In order to make room for the radar, two of the 0.50-inch machine guns and their ammunition boxes had to be moved forward. Three P-38Js were also modified in the field as experimental night fighters.

However, these modifications were all single seaters, and it was found that the flying of the plane and the operation of the radar was too much of a job for just one person. Consequently, Lockheed attempted to adapt the P-38L as a two-seat night fighter. In 1944, Lockheed converted P-83L-5-LO Ser No 44-25237 as a two-seat night fighter, with the radar operator sitting aft of the pilot under a raised section of the canopy. The aircraft was fitted with an AN/APS-6 radar in an external radome underneath the nose, relocated radio equipment and anti-flash gun muzzles.

This modification was successful, and provided the USAAF with a night fighter having a top speed of 406 mph at 15,000 feet as compared to only 369 mph at 20,000 feet for the Northrop P-61A Black Widow. Consequently, the Army issued a contract change calling for the Lockheed Modification Center in Dallas to convert 80 additional P-38L-5-LOs into P-38M twin-seat night fighters (some sources give 75, but 80 serials are identified). They were painted glossy black overall. These were just entering service when the war ended. The P-38M saw operational service in the Pacific in the last few days of the war. It was an effective night fighter with very little performance penalty over the standard single-seat Lightning.

Flash eliminators were fitted to all guns, mainly to aid the pilot in retaining night vision when they were fired. Experiments were conducted with the object of shielding the turbosupercharger exhaust, but the entire exhaust system was so hot that it glowed at night, making the small reduction of visibility possible with the shielding of the actual efflux relatively pointless. Consequently, no modifications of the exhaust system were undertaken on "production" P-38Ms. Initial climb rate was 3075 feet per minute, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 8.7 minutes.

A total of 80 P-38Ls were converted to P-38M configuration. Serials of P-38Ls converted to P-38M configuration were as follows: 44-26831, 26863, 26865, 26892, 26951, 26997, 26999, 27000, 27108, 27233, 27234, 27236, 27237, 27238, 27245, 27249, 27250, 27251, 27252, 27254, 27256, 27257, 27258, 53011, 53012, 53013, 53014, 53015, 53016, 53017, 53019, 53020, 53022, 53023, 53025, 53029, 53030, 53031, 53032, 53034, 53035, 53042, 53050, 53052, 53056, 53062, 53063, 53066, 53067, 53068, 53069, 53073, 53074, 53076, 53077, 53079, 53080, 53082, 53083, 53084, 53085, 53086, 53087, 53088, 53089, 53090, 53092, 53093, 53094, 53095, 53096, 53097, 53098, 53100, 53101, 53106, 53107, 53109, 53110, 53112.

There is a P-38M on display at the Champlin Fighter Museum at Falcon Field, Mesa, Arizona. It no longer has its radome slung under the nose, but the two-seat configuration is still retained. That radar operator in the rear must have been REALLY cramped!

Sources:

1. Lockheed Aircraft Since 1913, Rene J. Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1987

2. The P-38J-M Lockheed Lightning, Profile Publications, Le Roy Weber Profile Publications, Ltd, 1965.

3. War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Four, William Green, Doubleday, 1964.

4. Famous Fighters of the Second World War, William Green, Doubleday, 1967.

5. The American Fighter, Enzo Anguluci and Peter Bowers, Orion Books, 1987.

6. United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian Institution Press, 1989.

7. e-Mail from Daniel Stover on P-38M counts (80 serial numbers listed)



Now don't do the same to me , I'm pointing out how bl**dy awkward the internet makes these issues and you can see where problems can start.

[Erich]

don't worry I'm not going to give you a groin kick but let me point out something with your sources if I may, not one of them have anything to do with a viable US Night fighter source. I have all of that crap stored, the M was not in operations in any part of the war except in China after hostilities ended. this is fact both from official US NF unit microfishe and at least a dozen Us night fighter veterans I have interviewed over the past 20 years, I have witnessed several clear colour pics of techs hopping aboard the black thing with the blutted nose radar system. If anyone thinks anyone in the Pacific or ETo was going to tade in their vaunted P-61B's for the P-38 well think again.

hoping this settles out real soon like right now. by the way I would not use Greens warplanes as a source even if someone paid me

[FlexiBull]

Cheers Erich ............... I understand fully, it literally was the first web page listed.

As I said to my pupils "check your sources" anyway off to bed for both of us

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by FlexiBull

Not sure if I should post this, so apologies

I always told my pupils at school not to rely on the Internet unless they could verify the source.

I guess the guy's attitude got him the chop, but put "p 38m" into your browser and what comes up is this

"Lockheed P-38M Lightning
Last revised June 13, 1999


Early in 1943, at least two unidentified P-38Fs were modified in the field by the Fifth Air Force as single-seat night fighters by fitting an SCR540 radar with yagi antennae on the nose on both sides of the central nacelle, and above and below the wings. In order to make room for the radar, two of the 0.50-inch machine guns and their ammunition boxes had to be moved forward. Three P-38Js were also modified in the field as experimental night fighters.

However, these modifications were all single seaters, and it was found that the flying of the plane and the operation of the radar was too much of a job for just one person. Consequently, Lockheed attempted to adapt the P-38L as a two-seat night fighter. In 1944, Lockheed converted P-83L-5-LO Ser No 44-25237 as a two-seat night fighter, with the radar operator sitting aft of the pilot under a raised section of the canopy. The aircraft was fitted with an AN/APS-6 radar in an external radome underneath the nose, relocated radio equipment and anti-flash gun muzzles.

This modification was successful, and provided the USAAF with a night fighter having a top speed of 406 mph at 15,000 feet as compared to only 369 mph at 20,000 feet for the Northrop P-61A Black Widow. Consequently, the Army issued a contract change calling for the Lockheed Modification Center in Dallas to convert 80 additional P-38L-5-LOs into P-38M twin-seat night fighters (some sources give 75, but 80 serials are identified). They were painted glossy black overall. These were just entering service when the war ended. The P-38M saw operational service in the Pacific in the last few days of the war. It was an effective night fighter with very little performance penalty over the standard single-seat Lightning.

Flash eliminators were fitted to all guns, mainly to aid the pilot in retaining night vision when they were fired. Experiments were conducted with the object of shielding the turbosupercharger exhaust, but the entire exhaust system was so hot that it glowed at night, making the small reduction of visibility possible with the shielding of the actual efflux relatively pointless. Consequently, no modifications of the exhaust system were undertaken on "production" P-38Ms. Initial climb rate was 3075 feet per minute, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 8.7 minutes.

A total of 80 P-38Ls were converted to P-38M configuration. Serials of P-38Ls converted to P-38M configuration were as follows: 44-26831, 26863, 26865, 26892, 26951, 26997, 26999, 27000, 27108, 27233, 27234, 27236, 27237, 27238, 27245, 27249, 27250, 27251, 27252, 27254, 27256, 27257, 27258, 53011, 53012, 53013, 53014, 53015, 53016, 53017, 53019, 53020, 53022, 53023, 53025, 53029, 53030, 53031, 53032, 53034, 53035, 53042, 53050, 53052, 53056, 53062, 53063, 53066, 53067, 53068, 53069, 53073, 53074, 53076, 53077, 53079, 53080, 53082, 53083, 53084, 53085, 53086, 53087, 53088, 53089, 53090, 53092, 53093, 53094, 53095, 53096, 53097, 53098, 53100, 53101, 53106, 53107, 53109, 53110, 53112.

There is a P-38M on display at the Champlin Fighter Museum at Falcon Field, Mesa, Arizona. It no longer has its radome slung under the nose, but the two-seat configuration is still retained. That radar operator in the rear must have been REALLY cramped!

Sources:

1. Lockheed Aircraft Since 1913, Rene J. Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1987

2. The P-38J-M Lockheed Lightning, Profile Publications, Le Roy Weber Profile Publications, Ltd, 1965.

3. War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Four, William Green, Doubleday, 1964.

4. Famous Fighters of the Second World War, William Green, Doubleday, 1967.

5. The American Fighter, Enzo Anguluci and Peter Bowers, Orion Books, 1987.

6. United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian Institution Press, 1989.

7. e-Mail from Daniel Stover on P-38M counts (80 serial numbers listed)



Now don't do the same to me , I'm pointing out how bl**dy awkward the internet makes these issues and you can see where problems can start.

Hi Flexi -

I saw that article as well and as stated, no sources are given and I believe the author just "borrowed" that line from the half dozen other Internet sources that state the same thing. I seen an AAF document that showed the aircraft deployed and activated at first Okinawa and then over to Atsugi. Now I think we all know that Okinawa was in allied hands in August 45, but Atsugi is on the mainland - no way anyone was deploying there prior to Sept. 45.

There's additional information about the crews being delayed because of training, arriving in country in late July, early August - that too would put this to bed as well.

I'll try to hunt down this data which also shows the 418th NFS as the only unit to receive the P-38M.

[Erich]

here is the story, squads A,B,C and D were in the final phase of training under the 450th AAFBU when hostilities ended, since the war ended the squads disbanded and the personell transferred to other units.
NO P-38M's saw operational service though 4 were sent to the Philippines AFTER THE END OF THE WAR. After the P-38M's were re-assembled they were given to the 418th NFS at Atsugi, Japan, the four P-38's flew surveillance and training flights in January and February 1946 under the command of Captain Gerald Bliss.
In February 1946 the 3 A/C were turned over to the 421st NFS which the project was short-lived as HQ ordered the project terminated. 1 P-38 had already cracked up earlier. the 3 A/C flew to the 45th Service Grps. field at Clark in the Philippines and on March 8, 1946 the P-38's were removed from the unit and destroyed

[parsifal]

I accept that erich, great info as usual. Was the P-38M better than the P-61....I seriously doubt it

[FLYBOYJ]

Great info Erich - I ought to update Wikipedia!

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Great info Erich - I ought to update Wikipedia!

Unfortunately, you'd probably have too many "experts" change it back.

[brickhistory]

I'm late to the fray, but I just wanted to say:

"I'm Spartacus!"


Erich, hope you are better.

[Watanbe]

Originally Posted by Taildragger Pilot

I am not a Mosquito fan, particularly. As a kid I had an unnatural affection for the P-61. Nor am I British. But this seems like an easy call: Mosquito.

It had the best or tied (US derivatives of GB sets) with the best radar. Esp important in comparing vs GE ac as Mossie (over GE/occupied) operated with no/little/or longrange (read:weak) GCI for most of the European war. Put any of the Allied ac with a MK X against any of the GE over neutral non-GCI airspace and it would generally be a very lopsided fight.

Two man crew (required) seated side-by-side (true of only a few and very underestimated in it's importance).

Range (and lets give credit for having to haul the fuel load to take the fight TO the enemy and return..) to fly/fight in excess of the mission requirement.

4 reliable, tightly grouped, high-rate 20mm mounted low (flash) and lugging large (bombay) ammo hoppers surely was sufficient to the task and generally exceeded the various and dubious fitments experimented with elsewhere.

Speed. It is possible to quote some stat on some ac from somewhere on one special day, but the settled truth is that unless it was a jet or a late-war single seater starting from just the right position and energy-state, the Mossie was going to leave you talking to yourself..... unless it was chasing you.. Important connection to range here... Mossies in threat areas had the option (taken unless offset by a tactical consideration) to "cruise" well up in the bit. Ac do not instantly accelerate. Nor, as long as we are on speed, decelerate instantly. Which is a good place to bring up the 262. Given the need (less for the GE, true) to ID aircraft and the tremendous difficulty (applies to everyone) in estimating range at night (the danger of collision was tremendous), there is definitely such a thing as too much closing speed. Paired with this then is the benefit of being able to shed speed quickly (without maneuver if possible or risk losing contact or being detected). The Mossie had no special talent here (unless the other aircraft was much heavier) over other propeller ac, but was a real liability for 262. It's alternative was to fire from possibly too far out (alerting the target) or waiting (closing fast) until the sight picture firmed up at which time it possiblly collided or, more likely, got off a snap shot before having to turn off. From what I have read, the only real advantage of the short range but very fast 262 as a NF was that it offered great protection from the greatest (at least most feared) danger to a GE NF pilot: Mossie. Score Mossie.

Agility: Daytime Mossie vs 110 fights went mostly Mossie re agility. With that poss exception out to the way, Mossie was at least as agile as any GE twin. As to other allied... if so, they didn't demonstrate it in combat. The P-38 had similar performance numbers, but it didn't actually serve as a NF, so drop that. Please. And, just like the 262's difficulty in using big speed while on the offense, there is a limit to how much agility is useful at night. Given the difficulty in retaining a sight picture combined with the very real possibility of vertigo, then past some desired agility capability comes the likelihood that it comes at the cost of being a friendly IFR platform.

So, Mossie: you cant catch it; or you can't get away. If there were no GCI and you are a GE, you are very out radared. Unless you are in a 262 and run away...that is unless you have land soon (and you do) and Mossie follows. If you engage (still flying a 262) and he knows you are there (and he probably does, better radar), then you need to get lucky in a fast pass because Mossie is absolutely more agile than a 262 (demonstrated many times in combat by photo-recon Mossies).

Getting back to the question: Best night fighter. Just like daytime; what is the mission? Interception over home turf? Did that, though by the time Mossie was on strength, not a lot of targets over GB. Long-range night harassment of enemy airfields and night bombers in the pattern? GE did a little, but Mossie wrote the book. Pro-activly hunting enemy nightfighters, both near their airfields while actively hunting? Mossies hunted GE nightfighters over GE. GE mostly hunted bombers and hoped to survive the Mossie. Who is the better hunter? The wolf or the thing that hunts wolves? It's a generalization, but largely true regarding nf vs nf over GE. In the largest and longest protracted NF war in history, the Mosquito (excepting the odd 262 that only had the range to play defense) was at the top of the food chain. The occasion GE got a bite of one (and got credited with a double kill, the only ac GE awarded 2 for a single kill), but Mosquito ate every night.

And can we agree that it is likely the only NF that scored most of it's kills against other night FIGHTERS?

Or, work it backwards. What was the Mossie's weakness as a NF? Others lacked speed or range or radar or armament characteristics or agility or crew factors or extremely limited use or never matured. Name one and they all lacked one or several of the elements. Many exceeded the Mossie in some category, but there is always a "BUT". The Mossie is the only one without a "but." AND it did it for most of the war, in every theater, and did it in numbers. Oh, just as a kicker, being mostly plywood, off-angle to the propellers, it gave a lousy radar return.

What is interesting is the GE view of the Mosquito in general. They hated it more than any Allied aircraft. As a type. At least by the comments of Hitler, Speer, Goering, and Galland. Until late in the war with the 262 (and even then it stood a chance if it saw the jet coming), the Mosquito was able to overfly, photograph, or harass nearly anywhere in the 3rd Reich (day or night) and unless they got very lucky, they couldn't do a damn thing about it. Hell of a thing, and on a daily basis. According to Speer, it was the possibility of driving off the Mosquito that was the winning argument in favor of pursuing the 280/262. And the GE attempt at more or less copying it (with the hugely expensive but unsuccessful Moskito(sp?) project.

Maybe I am missing it, but how is this a hard call?


P.S. This is just me spouting, but does anyone else get tired of all the "almost" GE aircraft? It's a big thing to develop an aircraft to an operational state, train ground-crew specialists, accumulate spares and repair tooling, and then run whole thing halfway across the planet. You don't do it with "maybe" aircraft. But if the war is in your backyard, what is to lose? And how much easier is it to "give her a go" hoping to chance into a home run? Getting it into combat is as easy as getting airborne.

Imagine the whole thing turned around and let the US aircraft into the war with unsorted aircraft like the GE did. So the story would be the incredible ME-29 Superfortress in 1942, the canard fighter (Ascender? Sucked but excellent candidate for "Secret weapons of the USAF" bs), the canard version of the P-80 (drawn-up in 1939, another secret weapon candidate), the P-61 in the war 2-3 years earlier, the P-80 about the same time as the 262, the Bearcat in 43, the Tigercat in early 44, Griffon-powered lightweight Mustangs, P-82. How about the FG Corsair? (On that note, the GB Corsairs flew in the ETO off carriers vs GE. Yes, it kicked ass). Suggestion for a new topic? Corsair vs P-51 over Europe. Corsair had legs....

OK, flying a Cub tomorrow if weather gets better. Need sleep.

They are the exact reasons I think the Mossie was the best! I'm currently reading a book on nightfighter operations and it has completely opened my eyes on the subject! I have become very interested in it!

Eric maybe you can tell me what the problems with the JU388 were? No doubt the JU-88G6 was the best NF but the JU388 was basically a refined version! Why didn't it get operational in time to make any impact?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeah I too would be interested in hearing about the Ju 388. I never thought it had any real problems, it just was the lack of the proper engines (Jumo 222) that would allow the aircraft to fly at 430mph.

[Watanbe]

How common were radar problems and the failing of AI sets on the German side? From the account I'm reading it seems that for the British this was an extensive problem! Many planes had to turn around due to problems!

According to my source, this was especially the case when they transitioned from Beaufighters to Mossies