Best Nightfighter of WW2 (Continued)

[Concorde247]

Remember-Nightfighting isnt just down to the aircraft, its also down to the skills (or luck)of the pilot using it and their preference..

For example - Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer - Germany's TOP-scoring nightfighter ace of WW2 with 121 victories.

The Aircraft he used was the Bf 110G-4 his last one was coded 3C+BA Wnr: 180560.

He preferred the Bf110 over all the different versions of Ju88 & He219 - even though their performance was better in a lot of cases.

(info taken from Autobiography "Schnauffer -Ace of diamonds" by Peter hinchliffe

[Erich]

Greetings, yes it is a new day. Hopeful everyone had a blessed Easter.

RG:

The upper turret of the P-61 was used in the PTO only and was not used in the same manner as the fixed 60-80 degree Schrägwaffen installation.

9 out of 10 times the infa red binocs were not used in the ETO theater. Several reasons. The pilots were not indoctirined with the proper useage. the Binocs did not work and because of the first point the pilot would close to close to the German a/c for proper id and would have to swing out so he would not ramm the rear of the enemy a/c.
alos for the ETO and accoridng to the 422nd and 425th nfs icrofische the US AI was a faulty instrument on many occassions and noted in the diaries of the two US units "bent weapon" occured or just plain electrical failure where the crew would have to return to base.

For Schnaufer, he was totally unfamiliar with the He 219 and could not make a proper judgement call. His success to the Bf 110G-4 was not undlyuly alone in IV./NJG 1 as it was the most successful gruppe in NJG 1 and the most in all the Nachtjagd's. the Bf 110G-4 was fitting for it's time till late 1944, and nearly half of the exisitng Nachtjagd gruppen tired it's best to change over to the superior Ju 88G-6 but stalwarts in NJG 1 refused except to experiment with the larger Ju 88. Again it was only I./NJG 1 that used the He 219 and even then not all crews from the gruppe were happy with their mount.

Originally Posted by Erich

Greetings, yes it is a new day. Hopeful everyone had a blessed Easter.

RG:

The upper turret of the P-61 was used in the PTO only and was not used in the same manner as the fixed 60-80 degree Schrägwaffen installation.

9 out of 10 times the infa red binocs were not used in the ETO theater. Several reasons. The pilots were not indoctirined with the proper useage. the Binocs did not work and because of the first point the pilot would close to close to the German a/c for proper id and would have to swing out so he would not ramm the rear of the enemy a/c.
alos for the ETO and accoridng to the 422nd and 425th nfs icrofische the US AI was a faulty instrument on many occassions and noted in the diaries of the two US units "bent weapon" occured or just plain electrical failure where the crew would have to return to base.

The topic does not specify "Best Nightfighter of the ETO".

The P-61B's were not deployed to Europe. The British had made their preference for the Mossie well known, and the USA had no real need for night fighters in that theater.

The night vision binocs allowed identification at a distance, they included variable maginfication up to 5.8x. The P-61A crews in the ETO were never trained to use them, so they were not effective in that theater. But there is no reason to believe that properly trained pilots would have had a problem identifying German aircraft from 2000 feet or more.

Of course the upper turret was not used in the same way as the Schrägwaffen installation - it was a turret not a fixed installation. But it certainly was superior for underneath attacks.

I agree, the APG-1 gun-laying radar system didn't work very well. But this only prevented the P-61 from being totally devastating as a night fighter. Had the kinks been worked out of this system, enemy nightfighters would not have stood a chance against the P-61.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

but at the same time we're not stupid, if we didn't want the P-61 it was for a very good reason.................

The British military suffered from "not invented here" syndrome as badly or worse than any other military in the world. They were satisfied with the Mossie, so that was that.

Look at what they did the the P-38. First they insist the planes they evaluate be equiped with two engines that both rotate the same direction, then they dismiss it as having poor handling characteristics - DUH!

=S=

Lunatic

[the lancaster kicks ass]

dude we tested the P-38E i believe, and that sucked anyway!!!

[Erich]

C'mon RG I have stated many times I was a former member of the US night figher's association before it was broken up. I know some of the ETO vets of the 422nd and 425th nfs personally and have interviewed them at length my files on the ETO alone are some 4 inches thick. Will point out simply the ETO crews were trained in the useage of night binocs and yes the B's were used. have also in the past gave nightly reports with insertion of P-61 a/c numerations and the variant. Plain and simple there were not enough P-61's to go around, the P-61 was exhausted until service crews had to look for other means to replace needed parts struck by action/weather, crashes, etc....

Originally Posted by Erich

C'mon RG I have stated many times I was a former member of the US night figher's association before it was broken up. I know some of the ETO vets of the 422nd and 425th nfs personally and have interviewed them at length my files on the ETO alone are some 4 inches thick. Will point out simply the ETO crews were trained in the useage of night binocs and yes the B's were used. have also in the past gave nightly reports with insertion of P-61 a/c numerations and the variant. Plain and simple there were not enough P-61's to go around, the P-61 was exhausted until service crews had to look for other means to replace needed parts struck by action/weather, crashes, etc....

The great majority of P-61's went to the PTO. Those that served in the ETO did very little "night fighter" duty, first they did V1 interception duty and then they mostly did night interdition missions. Very few P-61's were delivered to the ETO after Spring 1944, except as replacements. Most (if not all) of the B's went to the PTO. The A's were retrofitted with the night vision binoc's, but they were not refitted with the improved SCR-720C A/I radar which would have required structural modifications.

All the info I can find on the subject indicates that both the 422nd and 425th NFG's were equiped with P-61A's in May 1944. I've been unable to locate a photo of a single P-61B in the ETO, or any source that specifically says they were deployed there.

=S=

Lunatic

[Erich]

RG I knew the 425th nfs commander Leon "Gilly" Lewis and have his full on interview, this was done some 8 years ago. B's were given to the unit as well as nigh binocs which hardly a crew used in action. there are pics of the 414th nfs with B's on the net. the unit alhtough flew most ops seperately had a short term with the 422nd. B's were full on inaction during the greatest time of night fighting and scoring for the ETO P-61 units during the Ardenne battles.

Local friend and pilot with 2 kills from the 425th nfs , Jack Slayton had 106 missions. 8/10ths of these were on night fighter-intruder patrols.

E I have more if your interested....

Originally Posted by Erich

RG I knew the 425th nfs commander Leon "Gilly" Lewis and have his full on interview, this was done some 8 years ago. B's were given to the unit as well as nigh binocs which hardly a crew used in action. there are pics of the 414th nfs with B's on the net. the unit alhtough flew most ops seperately had a short term with the 422nd. B's were full on inaction during the greatest time of night fighting and scoring for the ETO P-61 units during the Ardenne battles.

Local friend and pilot with 2 kills from the 425th nfs , Jack Slayton had 106 missions. 8/10ths of these were on night fighter-intruder patrols.

E I have more if your interested....

Well, lets look at it,

425th P-61's: (http://www.geocities.com/mep1100/425NFS.html)

Name        Serial No.            Type 
Unknown                               44-5537              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5539              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5542              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5545              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5546              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5549              P-61 A-5 
Junkin' Judy                          44-5550              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5560              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5565              P-61 A-5 
Double Trouble                        44-5566              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5568              P-61 A-10 
Tabitha                               44-5569              P-61 A-10 
Daisy Mae                             44-5570              P-61 A-10 
Mah Ideel                             44-5571              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5574              P-61 A-10 
Sleepy Time Gal                       44-5576              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5578              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5579              P-61 A-10 
Wabash Cannonball IV                  44-5580              P-61 A-10 
Little Nan                            44-5581              P-61 A-10 
Two O'Clock Jump                      44-5582              P-61 A-10 
Dangerous Dan                         44-5583              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5584              P-61 A-10 
Plenty Peed-Off Patootie III          44-5585              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5587(?)           XP-61D 
Unknown                               44-5588              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5589              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               42-39395             P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               42-39397             P-61 A-10 
Norma Dea                             Unknown              P-61 ? 
IITYWYBdd                             Unknown              P-61 ? 
Fearless Fosdic                       Unknown              P-61 ? 
Little Audrey                         Unknown              P-61 ?   (P-61A)
Midnight Menace                       Unknown              P-61 ?  (P-61A)
The Creep                             Unknown              P-61 ?

Of 35 P-61's assigned to the 425th, one is an XP-61D (service test?), 28 were definitely P-61A variants, and 6 are listed as unknown. Of those six, from photos it is clear that the Little Audrey and Midnight Menace were both P-61A's. This leaves just 4 potential P-61B's in the squardon. Thus far I have seen no evidence, or photo evidence of any P-61B's being used in Europe, but if you have some, I'm open to any new information.

As I said before, the P-61A's were retrofitted with night vision binoculars. However, they were not retrofitted with the improved radar system or turret of the P-61B. All P-61A's either had the turret removed or locked to fire forward under pilot control. I suspect P-61B's were not deployed to Europe because the P-61A's were sufficient for night interdiction missions, and the logistics issues were not worth the effort of supporting both types in that theater.

The 414th NFG served in the central Pacific, they arrived on Iwo Jima on July 7th, 1945. So they most likely did fly P-61B's, and I never said they didn't serve in the PTO. Unless you can find photo's or other evidence that show they had P-61B's in the ETO, the existance of photo's of 414 NFG P-61B's does not "prove" anything.

=S=

Lunatic

[GermansRGeniuses]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

dude we tested the P-38E i believe, and that sucked anyway!!!

You tested the "Castrated Lightning..."


No turbo-chargers = bad Allisons.

[KraziKanuK]

P-61B-15 42-39606 'Li'l Abner' 415th NFS St Dizier France Mar 45
P-61B-15 42-39672 'Little Audrey' 422nd NFS Etain France late 44

Erich said the 414th NF S not the 414th NF G

No turbochargers, and the props both turned the same direction - the British didn't want to maintain two parts sets.

Otherwise, the P-38D and E were quite good for their time.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

P-61B-15 42-39606 'Li'l Abner' 415th NFS St Dizier France Mar 45
P-61B-15 42-39672 'Little Audrey' 422nd NFS Etain France late 44

Erich said the 414th NF S not the 414th NF G

If that is Little Audrey's serial, they she would have been a B. That would be ONE in the group. However, this does not fit with unit diaries, which indicate only the older version SCR-720 radar was available for night interdiction missions as late as March 1945.

Midnight Menace is clearly an A model.



My original point remains howerver, which is that the P-61(B) was a very capable night fighter. Certainly as capable as the Ju88G-6. It had superior armament, armor, handling, and radar to the Ju88, and equal speed.

=S=

Lunatic

[Erich]

a couple of things if I may. go back to the link you provided for the listing of most of the 425th's P-61's. there were others. now type in the 414 and then 422 and see what you come up with.........surprise, B's

the last pic you posted has the extended radom of the B series. Again I am not really fond of continuing threads with you under the assumption you have provided net resources without personal vet interviews that I have done over a great many years nor documentation such as founding books that have been around for sometime stating B versions wre used in 44-45 in the ETO with the 3 squadrons later Med units that switched over from the Mossie to the P-61B. I can share that the vets memories have laxed some the last 60 years but in this case knowing and interviewing pilots and especially the CO of the 425th nfs that there wereno B varinat in the 425th rises up a red flag in my thinking. Are you saying that "Gilly" then is full of crock ?

if I am way too serious someone stop me ...........

[the lancaster kicks ass]

no you tell 'im erich........