Best Piston Engined Fighter Ever

[mkloby]

ohka - why do you think that kamikaze attacks are funny or entertaining? You have some growing up to do, my friend. These are attacks that killed many allied personnel, not to mention the japanese "pilots."

Then there's your TORA TORA TORA sig

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by mkloby

ohka - why do you think that kamikaze attacks are funny or entertaining? You have some growing up to do, my friend. These are attacks that killed many allied personnel, not to mention the japanese "pilots."

Then there's your TORA TORA TORA sig

That was a desperate times fought by desperate men. Nothing entertaining there.

When I was a kid I got to hear Cmdr. Mitsuo Fuchida give a talk at my church in Pensacola. He was the man who gave the call, TORA TORA TORA.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interesting. Do you recall what he said?

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Interesting. Do you recall what he said?

Not much, it was a long time ago and I was not so much into WWII history. It was mostly religious. He did say something like he was the only war survivor of the unit he was in. He felt it was so he could be a Christian missonary. He had become a Christian after the war. What was really interesting was that I was watching a History Channel special on the Tokyo B-25 raid. They interviewed one of the crewmen who was captured but not killed. He said he asked for a Bible and they gave it to him. He became a Christian while a prisoner of war and stayed in Japan after the war. They had a picture of him standing next to Cmdr. Fuchido. Amazing.

How I wish I could relive that presentation and was able to ask him questions. Too many things slip through our hands and we never know it till it is too late.

[lesofprimus]

How I wish I could relive that presentation and was able to ask him questions. Too many things slip through our hands and we never know it till it is too late.

Man I'll tell ya, I feel that way all the time.... I've met Joe Foss twice and now after all these years, those conversations are all but forgotten....

[Saberstrike]

The Vought F4U Corsair. It downed Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15s, and it was one of the most feared-by-Axis aircraft in WW II, alng with the P-38 Lightning...

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Man I'll tell ya, I feel that way all the time.... I've met Joe Foss twice and now after all these years, those conversations are all but forgotten....

I do now take the time to talk to a new friend who was in the Marines and fought at Guadal Canal, Tarawa, and Iwo Jima (where he was shot).

My neighbor, when I was a kid, was on a destroyer at Okinawa and it took a Kamakazi. He was in a 5" turret that was hit. All was killed except him and one other out of 25. I never talked to him about it.

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by Saberstrike

The Vought F4U Corsair. It downed Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15s, and it was one of the most feared-by-Axis aircraft in WW II, alng with the P-38 Lightning...

Mig-15. Not Mig-15"s". Reference Folmar. He was subsequently shot down by his MiG kill wingman.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap on 10 Sept. 1952. CPT. Follmar became the only Corsair pilot to shoot down a Mig-15 when the Mig got into a turning fight with him. As Matt said, the wingman of the Mig pilot quickly shot Folmar down who bailed out and was rescued.

[JoeB]

MiG-15's also downed two USN F4U's in October 1952 in separate incidents, so 1:3. The Corsair victory is confirmed in a specific Communist account. As usual I don't see the real significance of the Corsair, or Sea Fury, or Skyraider, having claimed swept wing jets. Laudable individual achievements but they don't prove much about the planes. Any reasonably capable prop would have an opportunity in such a combat if the jet slows down and turns with it, though again depending on pilot gunnery skill and/or luck (probably a fairly long range, high deflection shot would still be required). A Sea Fury was also downed the same day as their claim (which may well be valid but there's no known Communist account specifically confirming it), and 3 Skyraiders were downed by MiG's in SEA in separate incidents v 2 MiG-17's claimed by Skyraiders (at least one of which is confirmed in Vietnamese accounts).

As on another recent thread a Chinese La-11 also put holes in an F-86, (November 30 1951 Chinese pilot Wang Tianbao of the PLAAF 2nd Fighter Regiment claimed an F-86 downed, and F-86E 50-680 of the 4th FIW suffered 'major damage' from an 'La-9' per US records). When last I brought that up the response, after denying it was so because it's not an endlessly repeated incident like the Western ones, was "oh that doesn't prove anything". Right, it really doesn't, the big picture of that combat was 3 La-11's downed v no F-86's. But nor do any of the others prove much, except positive reflection on the particular prop pilots.

Joe

[renrich]

I am a Corsair fan but agree that downing one Mig 15 isn't very signicant. However, I would vote for the F4U 4-5 being the best piston engined fighter ever. To me, what is significant, is when a US Navy CAP in F9F-5s, either 2 or 3 of them took on 7 Mig 15s and shot down two Migs and damaged another and all Panthers returned to the boat. The Mig pilots radio transmissions were recorded and some of the pilots were speaking Russian.

[lesofprimus]

I think its more important that a few prop jobs shot down a couple of Migs than the other way around....

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by renrich

To me, what is significant, is when a US Navy CAP in F9F-5s, either 2 or 3 of them took on 7 Mig 15s and shot down two Migs and damaged another and all Panthers returned to the boat. The Mig pilots radio transmissions were recorded and some of the pilots were speaking Russian.

USN Panthers met MiG's on 6 different days in the Korean war, and their opponents were the Soviet AF in every case. The Panthers downed 5 (confirmed in Soviet accounts) and lost none. Marine Panthers met MiG's 5 times, Soviet in 3, Chinese in one, not sure about the other. They lost one Panther (to the Soviets) without scoring. The November 18 1952 case you refer to was different from the US side in that the USN *knew* the opponents had to be Soviet since they'd taken off from inside the USSR so it was considered senstive. From the Soviet side that particular unit was not at the time officially committed to Korea (later on it did a tour actually) but the losses were <1% of just their own MiG-15 air combat losses in Korea so not as special for them (4 MiG's were actually present v 3 Panthers; the Panthers were credited with 2 MiG's and dam/probable but only one of the MiG's returned to base; one Panther was hit but returned safely).

Re: MiG's downing props not being a big deal, who ever said it was? But the fluke incidents by Western props have been repeated in canned form for so long, tending to omit more numerous prop losses to the MiG's, some people seem to actually think prop planes were taking on MiG-15's in Korea on generally favorable terms, which wasn't the case (especially adding in a number of F-51's lost to MiG's without MiG losses), of course.

Joe

[lesofprimus]

some people seem to actually think prop planes were taking on MiG-15's in Korea on generally favorable terms

I dont think theres anyone here who feels that way, atleast the guys who have been here long enough to know better...

[FLYBOYJ]

No one in their right mind would think a "prop" aircraft (the more correct term would be "recip") of WW2 vintage could take on a Mig-15 or F-86 on favorable terms, but here's something to consider...

As stated in earlier posts, first and second generation turbine aircraft were notorious for having poor engine spool up times. The Mig-15 accelerated well but when slowed down to speeds under 350 mph still did not initially accelerate as well when compared to older recip aircraft. A recip aircraft can initially run away from an early turbine aircraft when both aircraft are operated in lower sub-sonic ranges, in other words, speeds at where a P-51, Corsair or even an La-11 thrive. With that said, there is no denying that during the Korean War both UN and communist recip aircraft have scored hits on turbine opponents with the UN seeming to come out ahead in these rare incidents. This seemed to have happened more to communist pilots than UN pilots by the posts reported here in and from combat reports I've read. With THAT said it seems that some of the tactics used by communist pilots were allowing themselves to operate in a regime where the weaknesses of their aircraft were possibly being exploited, knowingly or unknowingly by their opponents. While we could say this is no big deal, I would say during the few occurrences where the turbine aircraft were destroyed by a recip aircraft, it was a matter of pilot skill, bad or good combat decision making (depending on what side of the gun you're on) and of course luck!

It's kind of funny - these rare incidents also happened in Vietnam 15 years later where Skyraiders Shot down Mig-17s on 2 occasions. Rare? Yes. No big deal? Maybe, unless you're on the receiving end and knowing that a "prop" plane just smoked your @ss as you float helplessly in your parachute OR unless you're pilot in that prop plane having a nice big red star being painted on your aircraft while you're being doused with champagne...