Best Piston Engined Fighter Ever

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by JoeB

One confirmed credit for a MiG, specific confirmation from Communist side unknown. Anyway later that same day, Aug 9 '52, a Sea Fury was hit by a MiG's 37mm shell, belly landed on a UN held island off the Korean coast and was apparently a total loss.

The Corsair MiG kill in Korea was by an F4U-4B (BuNo. 62927 to be exact). It was immediately downed by another MiG; that incident is confirmed in a specific Communist account. The straight F4U-5 was little used in combat in Korea, -5N's and -5P's were the standard however for night fighters and recon Corsairs. The -5 had nice paper stats but bugs had crept into some "improvements" in the design and the paper advantages were not so relevant to the Korean War mission. And there weren't enough around to sustain any attrition; so after brief use of straight -5's by one Marine sdn in Korea early on, the USN and USMC standardized on -4/4B for straight fighters in Korea, until the Marines received some new AU-1's (F4U-6) close support planes in 1952.

Anyway I think fluke MiG killing is a weak basis on which to compare prop fighters.

Most of the planes mentioned were very impressive performers; I personally like the P-51H. However WWII showed that you need extensive realworld combat service to see the full value of a plane, all its intangibles. That mainly doesn't exist for the very late war/postwar prop fighters; they all had pretty scant air combat records, or very difficult circumstances (eg. Ta-152).

Joe

Wow! I kinda agree with all JoeB says. I don't have much data on some of these planes so I have to go by gut feelings.

The only data I have shows that the Sea Fury has a ceiling of only 36k ft. and climb rate of only 2777 ft./min at an unknown altitude. Not very impressive. Good speed though, 460 mph max. If it is like the Tempest, it has great low altitude performance.

Like I said earlier, the Ta-152 suffers a bit below 25k. I would hate to give up advantages over the airfields.

Bearcat is probably the best dogfihter in its element. However, it lags in airspeed and ceiling.

So, I have two choices. Both are very fast, with great climb from SL up to ceiling and a ceiling of over 41k ft. One is the P-51H (I'm sure all are surprised I selected this) and one is the F4U-4 (see JoeBs comments of why I did not pick the -5, which is also 300 lbs heavier than the -4). The P-51H is faster from SL to ceiling but the F4U-4 climbs better from SL to ceiling. So, its a toss up. Maybe the F4U-4 because of battlefield experience.

Classic Military Warnings

"Cluster bombing from a B-52 is very, very accurate. The bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground." U.S.A.F literature

Alas, no more Classic Military Warnings!

[flojo]

Originally Posted by davparlr

Wow! I kinda agree with all JoeB says. I don't have much data on some of these planes so I have to go by gut feelings.

The only data I have shows that the Sea Fury has a ceiling of only 36k ft. and climb rate of only 2777 ft./min at an unknown altitude. Not very impressive. Good speed though, 460 mph max. If it is like the Tempest, it has great low altitude performance.

Like I said earlier, the Ta-152 suffers a bit below 25k. I would hate to give up advantages over the airfields.

Bearcat is probably the best dogfihter in its element. However, it lags in airspeed and ceiling.

So, I have two choices. Both are very fast, with great climb from SL up to ceiling and a ceiling of over 41k ft. One is the P-51H (I'm sure all are surprised I selected this) and one is the F4U-4 (see JoeBs comments of why I did not pick the -5, which is also 300 lbs heavier than the -4). The P-51H is faster from SL to ceiling but the F4U-4 climbs better from SL to ceiling. So, its a toss up. Maybe the F4U-4 because of battlefield experience.

Classic Military Warnings

"Cluster bombing from a B-52 is very, very accurate. The bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground." U.S.A.F literature

Alas, no more Classic Military Warnings!

As far as I remember from one of these Osprey Aircraft of the Aces books (FW190 Aces of the western front?) there exists a combat report of a Ta152H outturning a Tempest V at low alt. So the Ta152H seems to be a reasonable turner due to greater wing area compared with a standard FW190. Unfortunately I have no idea if the turning ability of Tempest V and Sea Fury remained the same or if the different engine and the modified wing of the Sea Fury changed anything.
Besides - what's about the Ta152C as contender for best piston engine fighter ever?

[lesofprimus]

More combats happened at higher alts than lower ones...

[Soren]

Originally Posted by davparlr

Above 25k ft, the Ta 152H-1 would reign supreme. Below that there are several aircraft that appear superior to the Ta, F4U-4 or 5, P-51H, probably F8F, Sea Fury, and Tempest II. So, you might have a good time up there, but it could be sporty going up or coming down.

Classic Military Warnings

"If you see a bomb technician running, try to keep up." Unkown

The Ta-152H could do 595 km/h at SL, and that aint bad. Also with a climb rate in area of 5,000 ft/min it is a VERY good climber - and by virtue of its long span wings it would out-turn all the above as-well.

Still thisisn't to say that the Ta-152H is overall vastly superior or superior at all, but unlike the above (Except F4U-4) it actually saw service in WWII - hence Les' comment.

[Udet]

How come the Ta 152 suffers a bit below 25K?

If you check available information regarding the battle record of the unit that flew it in combat action (stab./JG 301) the Ta-152 swallowed soviet Yaks at very low altitude over Berlin. Also Rescke´s kill of a Tempest occured at tree-top level, so it seems the Ta-152 could more than handle combat at low altitude.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by flojo

Besides - what's about the Ta152C as contender for best piston engine fighter ever?

As far as I know only 2 Ta-152Cs were operational before the war ended and they did not see much if any combat to compare them to anything. The Ta-152H saw combat with JG 301 and is better to compare with.

[Erich]

well we do know that Ta 152C's from the factory were used by JG 301 pilots in combat. There is one confirmed kill of a P-51D in combat with the Ta 152H in 1945. not sure of the altitude but nearly every combat of the TA was at mid-low alt. and the craft seemed to perform beyond expectations

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

We shall see what Willi has to say!

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Udet

How come the Ta 152 suffers a bit below 25K?

If you check available information regarding the battle record of the unit that flew it in combat action (stab./JG 301) the Ta-152 swallowed soviet Yaks at very low altitude over Berlin. Also Rescke´s kill of a Tempest occured at tree-top level, so it seems the Ta-152 could more than handle combat at low altitude.

As the Ta-152 comes down in altitude, it airspeed starts to drop off. Below 25k, it is significantly slower than the P-51H (from 20 to 40 mph slower), somewhat slower than the F4U-4, but basically very close, I don't know much about the Sea Fury, if it like the Tempest, it would be a tremendous performer at low altitude. The Tempest in the Quote must have been a Tempest V. The Tempest II had a 48 mph airspeed advantage at SL. I have to admit that I have very little info on the Ta-152H, except airspeed. Soren would have the most data, I suspect. So I don't know much at all about climb except Soren stated it was around 5000 ft/min which would put it in the realm of the F4U-4 and P-51H.

Originally Posted by Lesofprimus

More combats happened at higher alts than lower ones...

This is true when high altitude bombing involved but I think it was not on the tactical level. I suspect that you would find that there were very few high altitude combats on the Russian front and that, if you include it in the total combats, low-medium fights would be in the majority.

Originally Posted by Soren

Still thisisn't to say that the Ta-152H is overall vastly superior or superior at all, but unlike the above (Except F4U-4) it actually saw service in WWII - hence Les' comment.

And, this isn't to say the Ta-152H wasn't a fomidable fighter. It most assuredly was, and was certainly the best high altitude fighter in the war. Soren, do you have much more data on the climbing ability of the Ta-152H?

Originally Posted by Erich

well we do know that Ta 152C's from the factory were used by JG 301 pilots in combat. There is one confirmed kill of a P-51D in combat with the Ta 152H in 1945. not sure of the altitude but nearly every combat of the TA was at mid-low alt. and the craft seemed to perform beyond expectations

The Ta-152H was superior to the P-51D over the entire operational envelope of the P-51D. But then, so was the F4U-4.

[lesofprimus]

My words have gotten skewed some here.... What I was referring to was the fact that with the Tank involved in Ops it was designed for, high altitude was where it would have taken place, going up against US Heavies and escorts...

I am aware that most combats in Russia were at med to low alts, but during the discussion above, I was talking about high alt...

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

My words have gotten skewed some here.... What I was referring to was the fact that with the Tank involved in Ops it was designed for, high altitude was where it would have taken place, going up against US Heavies and escorts...

I am aware that most combats in Russia were at med to low alts, but during the discussion above, I was talking about high alt...

Sorry I misinterpreted what you were talking about.

[Jabberwocky]

Personal listing:

DH Hornet
F8F Bearcat
Hawker Fury/SeaFury
Ta-152H
Hawker Tempest II
Spitfire Mk 24 w/ contra props
F7F Tigercat
P-47N Tunderbolt
P-51H Mustang
190D-13
La-9
Ta-152C
Seafire Mk 48
F4U-4

[davparlr]

Okay, I have a realignment of my choices. They are based on aerodynamic performance and combat experience and performance. The justification for the latter is that performance may be misleading, but combat performance is the ultimate test.

First Place. F4U-4. Performance was excellent from SL to Service ceiling, in both airspeed and climb, and had a great reputation for maneuver in all combat situations. Good Ceiling (41.6k ft.). Combat experience: WWII, Korean War, and Soccer War (El Salvador vs. Honduras)

Second Place. Three qualifiers. They have various strengths and weakness, I could not decide an order between them. So here they are in no particular order.

Sea Fury. Performance, including airspeed, climb, and maneuver, was excellent at lower altitudes (I have limited data to support this performance assessment). Mediocre Service Ceiling (35.8k ft.). Combat experience: Korean War. Low Service Ceiling and limited combat reduces selection level.

Ta-142H. Performance, including airspeed, climb? (no data), and maneuver, was excellent from SL to Service Ceiling. . Excellent Service Ceiling (48.5k ft.). Combat experience: WWII. Very competitive to F4U-4, lower performance at lower altitudes is offset by high altitude performance. Very limited combat experience and lack of data reduces selection level.

P-47N. Performance, including airspeed and maneuver is excellent from SL to Service Ceiling. Climb is good. Very good Service Ceiling (43k ft.). Combat experience: WWII. Performance similar to F4U-4 with emphasis on higher altitude performance. Lower combat experience to F4U-4 reduces selection level.

Honorable Mention:

P-51H. Faster than the F4U-4 at all altitudes, good climb performance (slightly less than F4U-4), good maneuver performance. Good ceiling (41.6k ft.). Combat experience: None. No combat experience negates rating.

F8F. Excellent climb and maneuver performance. Airspeed is limited. Good Service Ceiling (40.7k ft.). Combat experience. French Indo-China. Lower airspeed values and small combat experience reduces selection levels.

Others, probably.

[Jank]

The P-47N was a hot ship but hauling all that fuel, about 570 gallons, is a drag ... so to speak. With the fuel of a "D" model, she was closer in performance to an "M" than a "D" but I wouldn't want to go up against the other contenders you mentioned unless it was at over 30,000ft.

[Soren]

Davparlr,

Just a very small correction, the Ta-152H's service ceiling is 15.1 km (49.5k ft) with GM-1