Best Tank Killer of WW2 continued

[trackend]

Fascinating Erich I enjoyed reading that a lot Cheers.

[evangilder]

Good info, Erich!

[Erich]

another report:

As a result of the American break through (Operation COBRA), a retreating German column was attacked during the afternoon of 29 July by Rocket-firing Typhoons of 121 Wing, 83 Group and American Thunderbolts carrying 500 lb bombs. 99 sorties were made by 121 Wing.

It is not possible to state how long this particular German unit had been fighting as its name is not known but, on evidence of its abandoned equipment, it was a mixed column containing Panther tanks, SP guns, armoured troop carriers, lorry drawn A tk guns and howitzers, Pupschen rocket guns, armoured and staff cars.

According to local inhabitants the column was passing throughout the day and was joined by troops from the vicinity who looted as they left.

II. Terrain

The path of the German retreat in the area under consideration is shown in the appended map. It lay through country well dissected by deep narrow twisting valleys, much of the area being heavily wooded.

The side road which was used leaves the main road about 1 kilometre south of ST. DENIS LE-GAST (MR 315443) and descends rapidly to LA BALEINE where the River SIENNE is crossed. This road has a steep wooded cliff on one side and a sheer drop to the river on the other so that it was impossible for vehicles to draw off the road.

At LA BALEINE (MR 323427) the road crosses the river by a bridge which had been sufficiently damaged by 500 lb bombs dropped by Thunderbolts to prevent heavy traffic from crossing.

After crossing the bridge the road turns south, closely following the course of the river and a few feet above water level. On the east a densely wooded hill rises abruptly from the roadside making manoeuvre impossible. Half a mile down this stretch of the road (at point "A" on the attached map) the road twists sharply away from the river up a side valley. At this corner the road is well exposed to air observation and attack.

For the next quarter of a mile along the road as it climbs up towards the north east there is a fairly thick screening from the air, but just before the cross roads ("B") there is a short stretch that is much more open. At "B" the route followed by some, and perhaps all, the Germans turn south and continue to climb between high banks through farmlands and orchards. At several points along this stretch there are gaps in the road banks giving access to the fields.

To the east of "C" abandoned and destroyed vehicles were found along a fairly level road through fields with trees lining all the hedges and along a similar one turning south from it. As these roads are well outside the area attacked by the Typhoons the route was not examined further.

III. Details of Damage

(Note: Letters and numbers refer to points marked on the attached map.)



Point 1: Two camouflaged Panthers were placed in an orchard and facing the main road from ST. DENISLE GAST. They were probably in this position for several hours as there were signs that meals had been cooked. Craters caused by 500 lb bombs were seen within 50 yards of the tanks; these are thought to have been dropped by American Thunderbolts which are known to have been operating in the area. The tanks had not been hit but the crews apparently baled out, set fire to their tanks, and destroyed one of the guns by leaving an HE round in the chamber.

Point 2: A 75 mm SP with thick, concrete reinforcement of the turret was found pushed off the road by a Bulldozer. This SP was undamaged but 5 strikes from the air (cannon or machine gun) had made "cups" in the concrete. There was a 500 lb bomb crater 35 yards away. If the SP had been left to block the road it would have been set on fire by its crew; as it was not, the presumption is that it was abandoned in haste.

Points 3 and 4: Round about points 3 and 4 a number of 500 lb bomb craters were observed. At point 3 a Panther had been left on the road in perfect condition with full complement of petrol and ammunition. At, point 4 another Panther was found undamaged in every respect. If the commanders of these tanks had wished they could have travelled down the right hand bank of the stream and attempted a crossing as Shermans later succeeded in doing.

All along the river bank between point 2 and the bridge at LA BALEINE an assortment of "B" vehicles, all burnt out beyond recognition, had been pushed off the road by Bulldozers. A fair estimate would be eight vehicles (lorries and cars).

On the east side of the bridge a wrecked German saloon car was found at the foot of a 10 foot bank.

Point 5: A Panther was found to have been hit in the engine by a rocket projectile. It had brewed up.

Between the bridge and point 5 were a lorry towing a Howitzer and a saloon car; all three were completely wrecked and burnt out. RP strikes on the ground were numerous in this area.

One hundred yards south of Point 5 was another lorry towing a Howitzer; the lorry was a charred wreck but the Howitzer seemed to be undamaged.

A: Just north of corner A, by the edge of the wood, was a burnt out lorry which had been towing a 50 mm A tk gun. A Pupschen rocket gun was also found at this point; both guns were undamaged. At corner A, where many RP strikes were observed, was a Panther which had not been hit by anything and appeared to have been abandoned intact. Also at this corner were 5 armoured troop carriers (half tracks) which were all completely destroyed. RP was definitely responsible in one case and probably in all, but the damage was too great to allow accurate estimation.

Point 6: A troop carrying lorry was found burnt out; RP strikes were numerous in this area and the lorry was probably destroyed by this means.

Point 7: A Mark IV Special was found completely wrecked and pushed off the road; the great number of strikes in the immediate vicinity would suggest that it had been hit by RP.

A little further up the road were a saloon car and a lorry, both completely destroyed and burnt.

Point 8: A Panther was found wedged between a barn and a high bank; it also had stones in the tracks. A broken towing hook and tracks on the ground showed that another tank had tried to tow it and failed. This Panther had received no damage of any sort but was set on fire by the crew in the presence of the farmer.

In an orchard opposite Point 8 was a Volkswagen which had been hit in the engine by cannon or machine gun fire from the air.

A few yards up the road from Point 8 an armoured car (captured from the Americans and painted with German markings) had brewed up as a result of a hit in the engine. Although this looked like RP damage there were no strikes or debris anywhere near the point where the fire took place.

Point 9: A lorry was found burnt out; again there were no signs of rocket strikes.

In fields just off the road, at points marked x on the map, there were cars abandoned in various states of destruction. None of these had been hit by RP.

Point 10: A 75 mm SP gun was found burnt out but with no visible sign of the cause of the fire. A few yards away was a 50 mm A/tk gun, the breech of which had been deliberately destroyed.

Point 11: A Panther had an AP hit in the engine and another on the left driving sprocket; the left track was off. The gun had its barrel completely destroyed in the manner that suggested deliberate destruction on the part of the crew. This Panther had brewed up but the tyres were intact. It was a long way from the nearest area where rocket strikes were observed.

Throughout the area no German graves were found and only one German corpse, said by local inhabitants to have been that of a sniper shot subsequent to the passing of the column. It is possible that American forces had taken uhe dead to a distance to bury them but no proof or disproof of this could be found.

Many French civilians were examined in the area and their evidence confirmed the statements made in this report.

IV. Summary of Damage

The details of damage are summarised in the following table:



Note to Summary

The high proportion of abandoned Panther tanks to the total number of such tanks should be noted.

The MT was so mangled that identification of the causes of destruction was impossible; in consequence, the "unknown cause s" total has been unduly loaded. It would probably give a truer picture of events if the MT losses were spread over all the table in the same proportion as the other losses.

[Erich]

odd the map and table did not copy.............sorry guys

[Nonskimmer]

This is all great stuff.

[Gnomey]

Great stuff Erich!

[trackend]

Highly detailed stuff Erich cheers a real forensic visit to a battle field.

[evangilder]

Definitely. Great info.

[syscom3]

I remember seeing a History Channel show about 9th AF P47's figuring out how to disable a tank by aiming at the ground just in front of the tank and letting the richochette's penetrate the unarmoured bottom.

Dont know if its true.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by syscom3

I remember seeing a History Channel show about 9th AF P47's figuring out how to disable a tank by aiming at the ground just in front of the tank and letting the richochette's penetrate the unarmoured bottom.

Dont know if its true.

I like to think of this as one of those great enduring myths of WW2 aviation.

When you actually analyse it though, it turns out to be impossible.

Most WW2 tanks were more heavily armoured on their undersides than people realise. Designers generally gave their tanks some degree of protection to anti-tank mines, which meant heavy floor armour.

Panzer IV had around 85mm on is undersurfaces.
Panzer V (Panther) had around 90mm on its undersurfaces
Panzer VI (Tiger) had between 26mm and 90mm on its undersurfacces

The best penetration for a WW2 vintage M2 firing AP ammo is about 27mm at 90 degrees at 200 meters. The best penetration for API ammo is about 22mm at 90 degrees at 200m. If you add the extra velocity of a plane doing 350 mph then you can add about 155m/sec. This puts the inital velocity of a M2 AP round up from about 890m/sec to 1045m/sec, an increase of about 15%. That is going to add a maximum of about 3-4mm penetration

So, even a point blank shot against the lower hull, with no deflecting angle, adding the extra initial velocity, is not going to penetrate the armour plate on the bottom of a WW2 era tank.

You also have to consider a few other factors.
1. The drop in velocity when the bullet strikes the ground. This will rob the round of about 10-15% of its speed.
2. Round deformation when it hits the ground. Firing a .50cal round at a concrete or ashphalt surface is going to seriously mess up the claen shape of the projectile. That in turn will reduce the armour piercing capabilites of the round.
3. Angle of impact. In order to skip a round up into the belly of a tank, you would have to fire it at an oblique angle. So the round is not going to hit at the desired 90 degrees, but rather at something more like 30 degrees. This means that the bullet would have to pass through about 75% more armour to gain a penetration, if it wasn't deflected in the first place.

The one video I have seen of pilots refering to skipping rounds up into the underside of tanks is not actually referance to pazers at all. Rather it was a 9th AF straffing film where pilots would fire at the towed fuel tanks that Tigers often pulled along with them. The top and sides of the fuel tanks were armoured, but the undersides weren't. So the pilots would hit the fuel tanks, causing a nice explosion and hopefully getting a soft kill on the Tiger by pouring flaming gasoline into the engine vents.

[lesofprimus]

We went through this before... There were some Tigers that were destroyed by skipping rounds into the underbelly of the tank... We are not talking one single round, but several rounds impacting into the same area...

While this happened quite infrequently, it still happened...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I can see it happening on a case by case basis but I am sure it was not a standard tactic because it would not work all the time.

[Jabberwocky]

I'm going to be truculent and disagree with you lesofprimus. To me the concept is soundly in the realm of the impossible. I have never seen any post-battle research that indicates that .50calibre rounds killed a tank by bouncing up into its undersides. This is in the same leauge as the claims of P-47s turning over Tiger tanks with concentrated fire.

I don't believe that a .50 calibre round, or even a steady stream of .50 cal round,s could do serious damage to a German tank after being deflected off the ground and into its belly. Dispersion and ground deflection alone are going to gaurentee that the rounds wont line up neatly and punch through the armour.

At a minimum the rounds have to pass through 26mm of armour, at an unfavourable angle after coming up off the ground. The .50 cal is a good gun, firing a good round, but the physics of it is simply impossible. A 12.7mm round doesn't have a desirable length/diameter ratio to penetrate armour that more than twice its own diameter. The energy it would expend trying to punch through that much armour would rob it of all velocity and stop any spalling effects, which is really the most leathal thing to a tank crew.

Think about it. If it hits the ground at 30 degree angle and then leaves it at a similar angle, there has to be a serious loss of energy to alter the direction of travel. So your round traveling at 30 degrees now hits the flat bottom of a tank, with anywhere between 1 and 3 1/2 inches of RHA.

Assume that the bottom armour is just 1 inch. A round hitting flat (90 degrees) has to punch through 25.4 mm of armour, better than the best performance of WW2 US .50cal AP rounds by about 2mm. If the round strikes at ~60 degrees, it has to pass through approximately 30mm of armour. If it strikes at ~45 degrees then it has to pass through ~35mm of armour. It it strikes at ~30 degrees then it has to pass through about 50mm, or twice the value of the armour at 90 degrees.

What I do accept is that many German tanks were disabled by straffing. Pouring rounds into the engine exhaust grates, setting off external fuel and ammunition stores, damaging tracks, damaging crew doors, damaging external equipment ect would all contribute to a 'soft kill' i.e. the tank is abandoned or no longer in fighting condition, but is capable of leaving the battle-field and is fully repairable. German tank crews who underwent air attack with aircraft firing HMG rounds describe it as something similar to standing in a corrugated iron shed and having someone hurl a handful of pebbles at it.

Just a hypothetical to consider; if the .50 WAS indeed capable of killing a tank through this method, why wasn't it used by other airforces, with heavier standard weapons? Surely the British with 4 20mm Hispanos on the Hurricane, Typhoon and Tempest would of done something similar? The Hispano, with a similar M/V and 3 times the round weight, would surely be better at similar straffing atack.

[Jabberwocky]

Heinously stolen from one of Tony Williams long forums discussions at aviationbanter.com:

1. It is extremely unlikely that any bullets bounced off the road
would strike a tank's belly armour at an angle better than 30 degrees
(that would involve the plane attacking in a dive steeper than that).

2. The penetration of a .50 AP round at 300 yards and 30 degrees is
just 5mm (official figures) - and that's without bouncing off the road
first).

3. The belly armour of any 1944 tank is at least double that, to the
best of my knowledge.

4. In order for the bullets to bounce off the road but penetrate the
armour, the road would have to be harder than the armour plate.

[lesofprimus]

Im sorry, I should have clarified.... I was referring to the use of the 20mm cartridge...