Best Tank Killer of WW2 continued

[lesofprimus]

But these planes were actually used as fighters and carried HE ammunition - not much use against tanks.

They were actually not used at all due to the unreliability of the NS-45... But as I was talking about a simulation, the point is moot...

The Yak-9T with the NS-37 was the tank busting/ship destoying/aircraft exploding variant that saw extensive service...

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

They were actually not used at all due to the unreliability of the NS-45... But as I was talking about a simulation, the point is moot...

They were used by a crack fighter squadron which evaluated them in combat. They claimed one kill for every 10 rounds fired...but the skill needed to use the big gun effectively meant that the Yak-9K wasn't suitable for general use.

The Yak-9T with the NS-37 was the tank busting/ship destoying/aircraft exploding variant that saw extensive service...

Again, it was primarily a fighter, loaded with HE ammo. I'm not saying that it didn't occasionally engage in ground attack - any fighter might do that if the situation called for it - but it was issued to fighter squadrons, not close support units: they had the Il-2 for that.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Tony Williams

As a fighter plane the Fw 190 certainly completely outclassed the Hurricane, no question. But the Hurricane IID and IV were much better at knocking out tanks because their 40mm cannon had vastly superior accuracy to any rocket or bomb, and had the punch to penetrate the rear or side armour of the Pz IV.

While the Hurris were vulnerable to flak and fighters, they wreaked havoc on any tank columns they found in North Africa. Only the Tigers were fairly safe from them.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

The Panzerblitz armed Fw-190s were very successful at knocking out tanks. Rudel even used one after replacing his Ju-87 with it.

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

The Panzerblitz armed Fw-190s were very successful at knocking out tanks. Rudel even used one after replacing his Ju-87 with it.

Do you have any evidence of the hit rate achieved?

Many books say that the Typhoon's RPs were very successful against tanks, also...

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am going to have to look through my stuff and see what I can find. It was more than the 2% for the Tiffy though...

Let me see what I can find though first. Erich might have better info that what I have, but then again his info might say I am wrong....

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I am going to have to look through my stuff and see what I can find. It was more than the 2% for the Tiffy though...

Actually, the hit rate for the British RPs was 5% in training, 0.5% in combat, according to Operational Research who examined what was actually happening on the ground at that time.

As far as I'm aware, no other country conducted such detailed on-site investigations to verify what the fighter-bomber pilots claimed (the Germans were not in a position to do so, as by 1944 they were generally retreating). So bearing in mind that the OR teams discovered that the RAF and USAAF fighter-bomber pilots overclaimed their tank kills by 10 times, it is reasonable to divide any other such claims by 10, unless there is other clear evidence to the contrary (e.g. a tie-up with Allied admitted losses).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

German confirmations came from wing men in the unit. Rudels claims for the most part are believed to be fact and he was the most successful tank killer.

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

German confirmations came from wing men in the unit. Rudels claims for the most part are believed to be fact and he was the most successful tank killer.

Sorry, that isn't good enough. Rudel was undoubtedly a phenomenal tank-killer, but his wingmen were in no better position than himself to confirm that what he attacked was a tank (rather than some other vehicle) let alone that it was destroyed, as this was usually far from obvious.

There are only two pieces of evidence that count in confirming the number of claims: examination of the wreckage on the ground, or admitted losses which match up to the claims. In the case of the Allied fighter-bomber pilots, they often claimed more tank kills than there were enemy tanks in the area. No doubt these were backed up by their wing-men, as well.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Allright that I will deffinatly agree with, and examination of the wreckage was most of the time not going to happen...

[Erich]

well I am firmly in the belief that Soviet masses of T-34's and Stalin lined up on the roads leading into Germany were dead ducks under the rocket firepower of the Fw 190F-8 Schlacht units, but as Tony wisely has stated who went back to examine the evidence ? well surely not any of the Wehrmacht unless the ground was gained back in their control.
I am going to assume that the RAF Tiffy's actually attacked German armor from quite a greater height than the Fw's, as reading several German accts, the Fw's would skim over the trees for the sheer surprise of the onward attack and then try and hit the Soviet armor/MT broadside of possible, letting off their rockets and if ground Flak was not intense would circle back and then line up on the column in-line and low and let loose with their 2cm weapons.

Shortly I am receiving 1-2 photos and a letter/document through a photo collector on SG 1 ace Siegfried Fischer, so I will post that here. According to SG 1 records S. Fischer was incredibly successful against Soviet armor with his Fw 190F-8 that he was nicknamed " Blitz von Pommern"

[lesofprimus]

Gotta agree with Tony and Erich... While Rudel was undoubtably the leading tank killer in the history of armed conflict, his total was probably half/two thirds of what is officially listed....

Looking forward to seeing what u can post on Fischer Erich, as any info concerning the Panzerblitzers is exciting....

[Udet]

Lord Williams:

Although the Yaks were primarily designed to perform air combat duties, as fighters of course, they saw intense action in the ground attack mode, especially during 1944 alongside their armored flying turkey comrade, the IL-2 M.

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by Udet

Although the Yaks were primarily designed to perform air combat duties, as fighters of course, they saw intense action in the ground attack mode, especially during 1944 alongside their armored flying turkey comrade, the IL-2 M.

I don't doubt it - as I said previously, any fighter may be called upon to attack ground targets, and late in the war, with the Luftwaffe in steep decline, I'm sure that they did a lot of ground strafing.

What I have no evidence for is whether the Yaks were given AP ammo for the NS-37, rather than their usual HE. Without it, they wouldn't have been able to penetrate tank armour. But if loaded with AP, they wouldn't have done so much damage to soft-skinned vehicles.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[exec228]

Originally Posted by Udet

Lord Williams:

Although the Yaks were primarily designed to perform air combat duties, as fighters of course, they saw intense action in the ground attack mode, especially during 1944 alongside their armored flying turkey comrade, the IL-2 M.

many fighters were engaged in mud moving in conditions of air superiority.

as for Yak-9T, NS-37 has both shells, OZT (frag incendiary tracer) and BZT (armour piercing incendiary tracer)

[Erich]

think I will stick with late war Fw 190F-8 with Panzerblitz Rockets