BEST "TRANSITIONAL" FIGHTER

[HoHun]

Hi Comiso,

>Anybody else think the I-16 and the Gee Bee look similar?

I don't

Gee Bee: Wire-Braced constant-chord wing with thin NACA airfoil, fixed gear, pointed NACA cowl with exit gap combining mixed exhaust gases and cooling air.

I-16: Braceless cantilever, tapering wing with thick Tasgi airfoil; retractable gear, flat cowl with segmented inlet regulation and exit around the individual jet exhausts.

Other than being two stubby aircraft with the fuselage "hidden" as far as possible behind a big round engine, I don't see much similarity.

Here is an interesting article on the Gee Bee R-1:

The Gee Bee R1 and R2

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[FLYBOYJ]

If anything the I-16 somewhat resembled the Gee Bee model "Z."

[comiso90]

To me they both look an engine with a couple wings protruding and a man thrown in as a guidance system.

.

[pbfoot]

How did the PZL11 fare against the Russians when the Poles were invaded by the Russians in 39 I can't seem to find any info on this

[Civettone]

I can't remember any of these stories either. But I do recall that the Soviet invasion was literally the stab in the back as the eastern part of Poland was used to build up reserves and to run the country as far away from the front as possible.
So my guess is that 17 September was probably the day they decided to evacuate most of their operational aircraft to Romania. Just a guess though.

Kris

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

How did the PZL11 fare against the Russians when the Poles were invaded by the Russians in 39 I can't seem to find any info on this

I understand there was a lot of ramming going on...

.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

How did the PZL11 fare against the Russians when the Poles were invaded by the Russians in 39 I can't seem to find any info on this

On 1st September 1939 Poland had 109 PZL P.11c and 20 P.11a in combat units. As we all know P.11 was inferior to German planes and Germans had advantage about 5 to 1 or 6 to 1 in the planes number (Poland about 400 planes in combat units Germany about 2000) but still there was at least one German plane shot down for one P.11. 141 shot down to 118 lost. So I think for the given circumstances it's not bad.

Probably, when Russians attacked on 17th September, almost all Polish planes where down or evacuated to other countries, mostly Romania. So there wasn't much dogfighting. I read somewhere that Russians in 39 in Poland lost 15 planes.

Some numbers are from wikipedia, other are from back of my head so they don't have to be correct but I think they give some idea how the P.11 would put up against other planes.

P.11 before 1935 was widely regarded as one of the best fighters in the world. P.24 was even better with its 20mm cannons and higer max speed but it wasn't used in Poland in 39 due to the fact that Polish airforce waited for PZL.50 and when they realized that PZL.50 won't be ready for the upcoming war it was too late to produce enough P.24s.

[Zarathos]

Sorry for thread necromancy, but author of that thread made an error, and I think I need to correct it.

Polikarpov I-16
Performance
• Maximum speed: 460 km/h (290 mph)
• Range: 440 km (275 mi)
• Service ceiling: 9,700 m (31,800 ft)
• Rate of climb: 14.7 m/s (2,900 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 129 kg/m² (26 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 0.36 kW/kg (0.22 hp/lb)
Armament
• 4× fixed forward-firing 7.62 mm (.30 cal) ShKAS machine guns, a total of 3,100 rounds of ammunition.
• 6× RS-82 rockets or up to 100 kg (220 lb) of bombs

For year 1935 it should look a little different. Data presented above is for I-16 type 24, which entered the service in 1939. For 1935 the right version of I-6 are either type 4 with M-22 engine which was used since 1934, or type 5 with M-25A engine, used since 1935.

Polikarpov I-16 type 4
Performance
• Maximum speed: 346 km/h at 3000 m (215 mph / 10000 ft)
• Range: 680 km (422 mi)
• Service ceiling: 7400 m (25000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 10,8 m/s (2,130 ft/min) at 2000 m (6500 ft)
• Wing loading: 93,1 kg/m² (26 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 0,35 KM/kg (0.16 hp/lb)
Armament
• 2× fixed forward-firing 7.62 mm (.30 cal) ShKAS machine guns, a total of 1300 rounds of ammunition.


Polikarpov I-16 type 5
Performance
• Maximum speed: 445 km/h at 2700 m (276 mph / 8800 ft)
• Range: 540 km (335 mi)
• Service ceiling: 9100 m (30000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 14,17 m/s (2,130 ft/min) at 3400 m (11200 ft)
• Wing loading: 103,5 kg/m² (26 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 0,48 KM/kg (0.22 hp/lb)
Armament
• 2× fixed forward-firing 7.62 mm (.30 cal) ShKAS machine guns, a total of 1300 rounds of ammunition.

Biggest problem of I-16 was engine. Both M-22 and M-25 were licenced copies of Wright-Cylon engines with piss-poor altitude performance. Both engines were reaching the max. power at low altitudes (M-22 at o m(!), M-25 at 2400 meters or 7890 feets), and after crossing that altitude the power was falling rapidely. For example the climb rate for type 5 powered by 730 KM (740 hp) M-25 was 14,17 m/s at 3400 meters, but 1600 meters higher it was only 7,2 m/s.

P.24 has nothing to do on that list. It's production started in august 1936, so a little lat for 1935 fighter. Best you can get from Poland here is P.11c with Mercury V-S2 engine (600 KM/608 hp).

P.11c max speed was slightly slower then both I-16 up to 3000 meters, but faster at 5000m and higher. It had also better climbing then type 4 (14,45 m/s at 2000 m) and was climbing simmilar to type 5 to 3000 meters, but better then I-16 above that level.

If I had to choose from those planes, then P.11c is best one from 1935.