Best - worst cockpits - Aircraft of World War II

AL Schlageter · 10-12-2007, 07:17 AM

I have seen lots of 'best' and 'worst' airplane threads but have not seen one on fighter cockpits.

There is no question that the bubble (ie. P-47D, P-51D, Spitfire XVI) and 360 degree view canopies (ie. Fw190, Yaks, A6M) were better than the canopies on the razorbacks (ie. P-47B, P-51B, Spitfire IX, Me109) for vision.

But, canopies are only one part of a cockpit. What also must be considered is instrument layout, ease of using the controls and reaching switches, the pilot's seating position and 'elbow' room and any others you can think of that should be considered.

How would you rank the cockpits of the the major fighter airplanes from best to worst?

ps. Seems to have gone in the wrong section. Could a Mod please move to the correct section. Thanks.

FLYBOYJ · 10-12-2007, 07:48 AM

I think you're OK in this section....

I think the thing to look at for fighter cockpits was visibility and comfort. For the most part designers placed instruments in places that were well thought out and were usually dictated by a customer or design specification. For example attitude instruments are usually in the center of the instrument panel - engine instruments are usually to the right or bottom of the panel and usually close to the fuel shut off valves. Power controls are usually on the left console, switches and circuit breakers are usually on the right console.

The Basket · 10-12-2007, 08:09 AM

The Bf 109 has to be a contender for the worst.

Cramped, narrow, poor visibilty and with that overturned bathtub for a canopy. Never got a bubble either.

The Fw 190 was said to be one of the best. The P-47 cockpit was big!

ccheese · 10-12-2007, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Basket

The Bf 109 has to be a contender for the worst.
Cramped, narrow, poor visibilty and with that overturned bathtub for a canopy. Never got a bubble either.

I havn't seen the inside of many Axis cockpits, but I have seen the inside
of a bf109. It's got to rank up there with the worst....

Charles

luftwaffemesserschmitt · 10-12-2007, 09:23 AM

it has to be said the messerschmitt 262 had a very very good sight alround

comiso90 · 10-12-2007, 11:01 AM

The P-38 cockpit was awfully cold at altitude!

,

drgondog · 10-12-2007, 11:24 AM

I've been in cockpits of a lot of WWII and Korea vintage fighters and would say the same general rule of thumb applies.

American cockpits large and roomy, German/Brit and Russian - not. Having said that, the feel of a Spitfire cockpit is like having a custom tailored suit - no free space but comfortable nevertheless. I first sat in a MiG 15 when it came to Eglin AFB when I was 8 years old and THAT was a near perfect fit! Smaller than a Spit or 109 from memory..

I don't have any real negative comments about any of them except that the rear vision is less for the non bubble canopy (Duh) but the Malcolm hood version of the 51 had pretty good rear view. The Mig 15 and F-86 had the best vision of all. The P-38 seemed to have best view to rear and above, the worst to rear side and below... the booms were a real distrction but the cockpit visibility was great from the very first model onward.

As to instrument layout, as Joe said, the fundamental layout is usually purchaser directed and very similar from one ship to another. It would seem only an issue when switching from one country to another.

My father remarked that he had to 'label' several instruments on the 109 and 190D that he flew after the war because they were in different locations - but after the first couple of flights the labels weren't important..

FLYBOYJ · 10-12-2007, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgondog

My father remarked that he had to 'label' several instruments on the 109 and 190D that he flew after the war because they were in different locations - but after the first couple of flights the labels weren't important..

Like reading a book - after a while you know where the table of contents and index are located....

pbfoot · 10-12-2007, 12:51 PM

What I've g;eaned over the years is the American cockpits were the best laid out as for instrumentation and the Brits were the worst . Many pilots stated the Brits built the aircraft and where the pilot sat and instrumentaion was an afterthought. In one case they swapped the PTT for the firing switch on the Vampire in mid production.

Not to be outdone in Canada they put the compass behind the control column on the CF100 they rectified this by bending the control column

Glider · 10-12-2007, 02:38 PM

Worst has to be the Swordfish. Open cockpit, Russian Convoy, minus god knows what windchill, freezing spray and the USA complained about the P38, poor dears.

FLYBOYJ · 10-12-2007, 02:54 PM

I think the P-38 got a bad rap because many of it's pilots had no other twin engine time and didn't understand how a twin engine cockpit should be configured.

syscom3 · 10-12-2007, 04:00 PM

I think some pilots didnt like the control wheel setup either.

I've heard that the B29 instrument panel was OK..... limited room meant only the most important instruments were to be seen by the pilot, and the rest went to the co-pilot or flight engineer.

drgondog · 10-12-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider

Worst has to be the Swordfish. Open cockpit, Russian Convoy, minus god knows what windchill, freezing spray and the USA complained about the P38, poor dears.

Anything in the NA/Baltic in winter rain would be terrible.. but a P-38, unpressurized at 30,000 feet over Europe in winter would be no picnic at 40-60 below F either..

Soundbreaker Welch? · 10-12-2007, 04:55 PM

What about Me 163? That was one tiny plane.

renrich · 10-12-2007, 05:05 PM

According to the Joint Fighter Conference in 1944, for US fighters the best all around cockpit was the F6F5, worst was P38L, best engine controls was P51D, best gear and flap controls was F6F5, best cockpit canopy was P47D, most comfortable cockpit was P47D, best all around visibility was P51D.

10-12-2007, 07:17 AM	#1
AL Schlageter Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 220	Best - worst cockpits I have seen lots of 'best' and 'worst' airplane threads but have not seen one on fighter cockpits. There is no question that the bubble (ie. P-47D, P-51D, Spitfire XVI) and 360 degree view canopies (ie. Fw190, Yaks, A6M) were better than the canopies on the razorbacks (ie. P-47B, P-51B, Spitfire IX, Me109) for vision. But, canopies are only one part of a cockpit. What also must be considered is instrument layout, ease of using the controls and reaching switches, the pilot's seating position and 'elbow' room and any others you can think of that should be considered. How would you rank the cockpits of the the major fighter airplanes from best to worst? ps. Seems to have gone in the wrong section. Could a Mod please move to the correct section. Thanks.

10-12-2007, 07:48 AM	#2
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,874	I think you're OK in this section.... I think the thing to look at for fighter cockpits was visibility and comfort. For the most part designers placed instruments in places that were well thought out and were usually dictated by a customer or design specification. For example attitude instruments are usually in the center of the instrument panel - engine instruments are usually to the right or bottom of the panel and usually close to the fuel shut off valves. Power controls are usually on the left console, switches and circuit breakers are usually on the right console. __________________ > I Support Doug Gillis <

10-12-2007, 11:01 AM	#6
comiso90 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: FL Posts: 3,529	The P-38 cockpit was awfully cold at altitude! , __________________ http://www.BOOKSonWAR.com/ .

10-12-2007, 02:54 PM	#11
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,874	I think the P-38 got a bad rap because many of it's pilots had no other twin engine time and didn't understand how a twin engine cockpit should be configured. __________________ > I Support Doug Gillis <

10-12-2007, 04:00 PM	#12
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,812	I think some pilots didnt like the control wheel setup either. I've heard that the B29 instrument panel was OK..... limited room meant only the most important instruments were to be seen by the pilot, and the rest went to the co-pilot or flight engineer. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

10-12-2007, 08:09 AM	#3
The Basket Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 626	The Bf 109 has to be a contender for the worst. Cramped, narrow, poor visibilty and with that overturned bathtub for a canopy. Never got a bubble either. The Fw 190 was said to be one of the best. The P-47 cockpit was big!

10-12-2007, 09:23 AM	#5
luftwaffemesserschmitt Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 38	it has to be said the messerschmitt 262 had a very very good sight alround

10-12-2007, 11:24 AM	#7
drgondog Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon Posts: 4,198	I've been in cockpits of a lot of WWII and Korea vintage fighters and would say the same general rule of thumb applies. American cockpits large and roomy, German/Brit and Russian - not. Having said that, the feel of a Spitfire cockpit is like having a custom tailored suit - no free space but comfortable nevertheless. I first sat in a MiG 15 when it came to Eglin AFB when I was 8 years old and THAT was a near perfect fit! Smaller than a Spit or 109 from memory.. I don't have any real negative comments about any of them except that the rear vision is less for the non bubble canopy (Duh) but the Malcolm hood version of the 51 had pretty good rear view. The Mig 15 and F-86 had the best vision of all. The P-38 seemed to have best view to rear and above, the worst to rear side and below... the booms were a real distrction but the cockpit visibility was great from the very first model onward. As to instrument layout, as Joe said, the fundamental layout is usually purchaser directed and very similar from one ship to another. It would seem only an issue when switching from one country to another. My father remarked that he had to 'label' several instruments on the 109 and 190D that he flew after the war because they were in different locations - but after the first couple of flights the labels weren't important..

10-12-2007, 12:51 PM	#9
pbfoot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: niagara falls Posts: 5,962	What I've g;eaned over the years is the American cockpits were the best laid out as for instrumentation and the Brits were the worst . Many pilots stated the Brits built the aircraft and where the pilot sat and instrumentaion was an afterthought. In one case they swapped the PTT for the firing switch on the Vampire in mid production. Not to be outdone in Canada they put the compass behind the control column on the CF100 they rectified this by bending the control column

10-12-2007, 02:38 PM	#10
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 3,917	Worst has to be the Swordfish. Open cockpit, Russian Convoy, minus god knows what windchill, freezing spray and the USA complained about the P38, poor dears.

10-12-2007, 04:55 PM	#14
Soundbreaker Welch? Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 1,896	What about Me 163? That was one tiny plane. __________________ "His motor's conked out!" "What's the differance, they're all Nazis!" "Luke, shut up!" "Fear the hook!" "Oh.....I wanna fly." "You mean the kind that go under water and fly up the stairs?" "What you doing? Oh Nooooo!"

10-12-2007, 05:05 PM	#15
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,525	According to the Joint Fighter Conference in 1944, for US fighters the best all around cockpit was the F6F5, worst was P38L, best engine controls was P51D, best gear and flap controls was F6F5, best cockpit canopy was P47D, most comfortable cockpit was P47D, best all around visibility was P51D.

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