Best WW2 Fighter Pilot Poll Round 2

[KrazyKraut]

Thank you, Soundbreaker!

Hello Kruska,

what you say is true, although I think there was a certain, varying degree of autonomy on the eastern front.

What I meant to say however, is that quite a few pilots felt insulted or punished by orders like the mentioned bomber protection. At least that's what you read in the books. And apparently this was exactly what Goering meant to achieve with these kind of orders. It might be exaggregated though.

Hartmann was, in my eyes, a very realistic soldier. His views on air combat were based on accomplishing his mission while minimizing the risk to himself and his men. Very straightforward and not as romanticizing as some others.

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by KrazyKraut

Hartmann was, in my eyes, a very realistic soldier. His views on air combat were based on accomplishing his mission while minimizing the risk to himself and his men. Very straightforward and not as romanticizing as some others.

Hello KrazyKraut,

I surely do agree on your viewpoint expressed towards Hartmann and the same would apply to Baer and many other pilots of all nations. So it isn't really an outstanding feature in regards to evaluating the Best.

Again in regards to escort duties:

Off course it was a very common task that was ordered and fulfilled by the Jagdstaffeln, it was actually their sole purpose/objective - securing the airspace during their mission.
The BoB changed that in view of “securing the airspace” before the actual bomber raids got started. So the “Freie Jagd” – Free Hunting was ordered for many weeks, its main goal was to annihilate the British fighters mainly over the channel or coastal area.
And exactly this caused / enabled the Kill Statistic fever and was spurned by Goerings PR addiction – glorifying the “Falcons”, Fliegerhelden or Aces.

The actual reason why the fighter pilots disliked the “close escort” in regards to the bombing raids over England was the insufficient range of the 109 not allowing them to actually utilize their skills or providing sufficient time to engage in dog-fights. They also knew that once hit or their a/c damaged they would end up in captivity. Not that they felt insulted/punished besides a few who felt it negative in regards to their "Halsschmerzen" (Throatpain) a German expression used for ambitious soldiers to receive the Knightscross.

Therefore according to official Luftwaffe reports and also remembrances of my uncle the numbers of “broken off flights” due to reported “Engine problems”, low oil pressure, or “strange sounds” increased dramatically as the BoB prolonged. It was the Channel that made close escort a suicidal or a no return ticket job and as such “unpopular” / feared amongst any Luftwaffe pilot.

Regards
Kruska

[P1234567890]

I think it's really strange that Nowotny didn't make it to round 2. He had 258 confirmed kills in 442 missions!

How some of the more questionable pilots up there made it and he didn't is beyond me.

Not to mention Barkhorn, Rall, Kittel, Batz, Rudorffer, or any of the other German pilots who had more than 200 kills...

In any case, it's nice to see that Hartmann, Marseille, and Baer are the top three in the polls.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

I think it's really strange that Nowotny didn't make it to round 2. He had 258 confirmed kills in 442 missions!

How some of the more questionable pilots up there made it and he didn't is beyond me.

Not to mention Barkhorn, Rall, Kittel, Batz, Rudorffer, or any of the other German pilots who had more than 200 kills...

In any case, it's nice to see that Hartmann, Marseille, and Baer are the top three in the polls.

They did not make the poll because they did not get eneogh votes. It really is not that hard to understand?

People vote for different reasons than you do. Some people might put more weight on other things other than just how many kills they got.

Sorry but you are not the only authority on who is best...

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

I voted for Galland, because he's one of my favorite Axis Pilots, and a great leader.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

They did not make the poll because they did not get eneogh votes. It really is not that hard to understand?

No, I understand the system just fine; that's not the problem here. I'm just expressing my dismay at the results of said poll, that's all. In any case, at least the top three are right.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

People vote for different reasons than you do. Some people might put more weight on other things other than just how many kills they got.

Two comments:

1. I don't 'just' consider how many kills a pilot got. If that were the case, then clearly I would have voted for Hartmann.

2. You are right when you say that other people put more weight on other things. Unfortunately one of those things seems to be the latitude and longitude of where the pilot was born and grew up.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Sorry but you are not the only authority on who is best...

Are there any serious, professional military historians (a.k.a. 'authorities') who claim that Witold Urbanowicz or Robert S. Johnson or Pappy Boyington or even Buzz Beurling was the best fighter pilot of the war?

Are there *any* authorities on World War II aviation who would NOT include Nowotny in a top ten list of the best pilots of the war?

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

No, I understand the system just fine; that's not the problem here. I'm just expressing my dismay at the results of said poll, that's all. In any case, at least the top three are right.



Two comments:

1. I don't 'just' consider how many kills a pilot got. If that were the case, then clearly I would have voted for Hartmann.

2. You are right when you say that other people put more weight on other things. Unfortunately one of those things seems to be the latitude and longitude of where the pilot was born and grew up.



Are there any serious, professional military historians (a.k.a. 'authorities') who claim that Witold Urbanowicz or Robert S. Johnson or Pappy Boyington or even Buzz Beurling was the best fighter pilot of the war?

Are there *any* authorities on World War II aviation who would NOT include Nowotny in a top ten list of the best pilots of the war?

Why not it ain't just numbers , 99.9% of the time after 41 the Germans were flying over or very near there own lines they weren't tredding deeply into unfamiliar territory and when they did they didn't fare all that well. I would like to know how you rate yourself an expert what qualifications do you have ? have you ever talked to some of these guys

[kool kitty89]

And the US PTO aces scored allot of kills in superior planes in greater numbers against poorly trained/inexperienced Japanese pilots. (which was usualy the case for the better part of the war)

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Why not it ain't just numbers , 99.9% of the time after 41 the Germans were flying over or very near there own lines they weren't tredding deeply into unfamiliar territory and when they did they didn't fare all that well.

That's a pretty weak point. First of all, there are many factors which are more important than whether or not a pilot was flying over his own lines.

In fact, one might argue that it's *totally* irrelevant, especially seeing that as the war went on, the allies had an ever-increasing level of air superiority, and scoring kills under conditions where the enemy has you outnumbered counts as a plus for the Germans.

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I would like to know how you rate yourself an expert what qualifications do you have ? have you ever talked to some of these guys

Nope, I've never met a WWII fighter ace personally, but I'm interested in the subject, I read a lot, and I'm aware of a lot of relevant facts and statistics. Most importantly, though, I have a background in mathematics, and I understand how to compare things across multiple orthogonal categories as objectively as possible. In the case of World War II fighter pilots, the statistics are skewed so far in favor of the top Germans that there really doesn't seem to be any way a non-German could come out on top of *any* reasonable comparison model.

And seriously, am I making any unreasonable claims here? Is it really that unreasonable of me to express disapproval at the fact that Nowotny isn't on the list up there and that so many of those other guys are???

By the way, it seems like I'm just agreeing with what the professional military historians have to say. If there's anyone here who believes that the best pilot of the war wasn't German AND can cite a reputable military historian specializing in WWII air combat (a.k.a. a real expert) who agrees, then I'd love to hear about it.

I for one can cite Galland, who stated that Marseille was the best fighter pilot of the war.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

And the US PTO aces scored allot of kills in superior planes in greater numbers against poorly trained/inexperienced Japanese pilots. (which was usualy the case for the better part of the war)

Good point. There's a reason why the Japanese started resorting to Kamikazi attacks. At least part of it was to avoid the whole war being a Marianas Turkey Shoot. By the end of the war, the Japanese pilots were getting almost no training. (Same with the Germans.)

In my opinion, shooting down a Russian plane at any point during the war was worth more than shooting down a Japanese or German plane late in the war.

[buzzard]

I'm still with Hartmann. The raison d'etre of a fighter pilot is to find and shoot down the enemy, and Hartmann's score is head and shoulders above anyone else. All the 'what ifs' about who would have done what are irrelevant. Hartmann, like Bar, fought where he was ordered to fight, and if he chose not to accept the offer to join the jet squadrons against the Allied bombers, it was because he had a realistic and pragmatic understanding of his abilities...and the conviction that stopping the advance of the Red Army was at least as important to the future of Germany, as stopping the 8th Air Force was.

If achievements other than the sheer number of kills are to factor into the analysis of who was the pre-eminent fighter pilot, than the one man who has the most valid claim to this title is not even in the poll: Werner Moelders.

JL

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

By the way, it seems like I'm just agreeing with what the professional military historians have to say. If there's anyone here who believes that the best pilot of the war wasn't German AND can cite a reputable military historian specializing in WWII air combat (a.k.a. a real expert) who agrees, then I'd love to hear about it.

But than again I've met a lot of so-called professional historians who never served in the military and never flew an airplane, so how do they really specialize in aerial combat?

[Njaco]

Unfortunately one of those things seems to be the latitude and longitude of where the pilot was born and grew up.

I don't see how you can make that assumption. This poll is part 2 of another poll. Those listed here were the top voted. Unless someone stated in the thread who they voted for, how would anyone tell?

I've never set foot in Germany and barely outside of New Jersey but I voted on my opinion of who I thought was the most well-rounded pilot, facing a multitude of challenges and surviving to score again. Of the many - and there are many for all countries! - I chose Bar for all thats been stated before. In the last poll I pushed for Rudorffer and I admired a pilot from Finland along with Bar. There are numerous good arguments for all the pilots mentioned - and all the points are valid - but to me, a pilot that reaches the top has many criteria to overcome and that leaves very few. Thats why I chose Bar.

That being said, again this poll is for the ones that won the poll from Round One. Nothing is gonna change that for this poll.

[kool kitty89]

True on the training part, (I think the IJA was not in as bad of shape as the IJN though, for multiple resons including the training progrsm) there were a hell of allot more experienced German pilot left in the late par of the war than Japanese (the survivability of the aircraft obviously played a role, though there were other factors).


But when comparing the German aces you also have to remember many had pre war experience and some kills, and more importantly experience even before the war. They also tended to be significantly older than most allied (particularly US) counterparts, along with their greater experience and much longer flying time. And they stayed in long after most allied pilots would have withdrawn. (particularly with the US, with the pilot rotation with vets often to aid in training)
The previous experience is also very true for the Finnish pilots as well. (winter war Vets) And the Germans, and Particularly the Finns were fighting for their homeland for long periods of time, which adds a ferocity of its own. (the Brits had it too in the BoB)

I'm not saying that diminishes their acheivements in any way, I just wonder how the some of the US British, commonwealth etc. would have done had they been in that situation, granted in the BoB they did, but that didn't last all that long.

[kool kitty89]

nd in round one not even all the top scoring pilots made it on the list (Otto Kittel for example), but that thread started out as a simple discussion, and when the thread was added anyone was open to request an addition.

So it was fair, and if you notice most of the lower scoring pilots (Robert S.Johnson for example) barely mad it on from the last thread, so it's not like it tilted to a bias, plus look at who got, and who is currently getting the most votes. And I think any one with 2+ voted made it on.

see the results http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...lot-12686.html (Best WWII fighter pilot....?)