Best WW2 Fighter Pilot Poll Round 2

[Njaco]

I guess in some unconscious way we're all using a mathematical equation to decide. I believe its how opinions do come about.

Agree with the nationality part but you can't deny that it is a factor regardless of mistake or not. Its that floating variable!

and as for professors - those are some people I have met and I have yet to find one that isn't all knowing, "my way or the highway" type attitude who look down their long noses at you if you don't abide by their superior intellect. I take them with a grain of salt and a spoonful of Imodium.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Hey, if you're anti-education, and you don't think that there's any benefit to going to school, then you're welcome to your opinion. I doubt that you believe this, though. I've got no idea how old you are or how many kids you have, but I'll bet that when your kids get old enough, you're going to tell them to go to university, and you're not going to urge them to drop out.

Professional military historians spend their lives doing research. They go through the log books and through as much first-hand information that they can possibly find. If you don't respect that, then you're being unreasonable.

I am not anti education I very much pro education but also realize a little education is a dangerous thing, I am 56 yrs old and have been involved in aviation most of my life either by employment or flying or as now preserving . I'll close todays statement off because I going to the field now maybe I'll give Marseilles 109 a little rub for you. I really suggest you try and talk to some of the guys that flew fighters then and now as the game has changed very little

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by Njaco

I guess in some unconscious way we're all using a mathematical equation to decide. I believe its how opinions do come about.

Yes, exactly. Some people put a 100% weighting on the number of kills, and ignore everything else. Others do a combination of kills/kills per mission/quality of enemies, etc. Some people rule out anyone from a different country and then try to figure out who the best pilot from their own country is. Everyone is using some kind of implicit equation.

Originally Posted by Njaco

Agree with the nationality part but you can't deny that it is a factor regardless of mistake or not. Its that floating variable!

It unfortunately is a factor. But look at you; you didn't automatically vote for a pilot from your country. You didn't fall into the trap. Why not?

Originally Posted by Njaco

and as for professors - those are some people I have met and I have yet to find one that isn't all knowing, "my way or the highway" type attitude who look down their long noses at you if you don't abide by their superior intellect. I take them with a grain of salt and a spoonful of Imodium.

Really? My experience with academics is exactly the opposite. If you can make an argument supporting your opinion, then they sort of have to listen to you. Good academics are open-minded, but not so open-minded that their brains fall out.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I am not anti education I very much pro education but also realize a little education is a dangerous thing,

What about a lot of education?

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I am 56 yrs old and have been involved in aviation most of my life either by employment or flying or as now preserving

And I hope you don't think I disrespect your opinion, because I do respect it.

Originally Posted by pbfoot

. I'll close todays statement off because I going to the field now maybe I'll give Marseilles 109 a little rub for you.

Cool; it sounds like you know what you're talking about, so I'll ask you this question: I'm in Toronto; where is the best aviation museum in the area which has WWII fighters in it?

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I really suggest you try and talk to some of the guys that flew fighters then and now as the game has changed very little

But you and I voted for the same pilot... If I follow your advice, it's probably only going to make my opinion more like yours, which means that it won't change, since we already have the same opinion!

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

I explained my method for comparing pilots across multiple categories in round 1 of this poll, and it is perfectly sound.

We have discussed this before P123 and I still don't agree. Although I must admit that, being a scientist myself, a mathematical approach to analyze these pilots appeals to me, I also think it won't come anywhere close to give you a definite answer.

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Except that I'm the only one here who has suggested anything remotely resembling an objective, mathematical way of comparing pilots.

That's because others realize there's no way you can do that. Data is mainly at fault. The data that is known is either 1. inaccurate, 2. not complete 3. biased. Therefore you cannot draw real conclusions. I do however agree with you that it could be a nice way to get some more insight in these well known pilots.

[Njaco]

Pb works at one of the gems of the North Americas with Marseilles Bf 109 at his fingertips!

[FLYBOYJ]

McNamara applied a mathematical statistical approach to the Vietnam War - that worked real well!

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

McNamara applied a mathematical statistical approach to the Vietnam War - that worked real well!

so was the Bay of Pigs operation and the F-111 besides many others.

Regards
Kruska

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by Marcel

That's because others realize there's no way you can do that. Data is mainly at fault. The data that is known is either 1. inaccurate, 2. not complete 3. biased. Therefore you cannot draw real conclusions. I do however agree with you that it could be a nice way to get some more insight in these well known pilots.

Just because we don't have *all* of the information doesn't matter. It's obviously still better to factor in the information that we do have than to ignore huge chunks of it.

I argue that anyone who votes for one of the 'lesser' pilots above is ignoring huge chunks of very important information.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

McNamara applied a mathematical statistical approach to the Vietnam War - that worked real well!

Sure, but there are plenty of examples of a scientific analysis doing a *much* better job than any other technique.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the algorithm I suggested in part one of this thread, but if there is, then I'm certainly open to criticisms which would improve it or show that it is invalid.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Pb works at one of the gems of the North Americas with Marseilles Bf 109 at his fingertips!

Seriously? Where is it? What is it called? I didn't even know that Marseille's plane still existed! Is it in the Niagara area?

[Kruska]

Hello 123......

Quote:
I'm not talking about authors. I'm talking about serious military historians in academia. Every major university has some. These are people who are not motivated so much by money but rather by writing history as objectively as possible. They are tenured and guaranteed their income, regardless of how popular their findings are.

Oh yeah..I do remember one of those, he had been a lecturer at the USAF Academy in Colorado Springs, and being his Students we had to listen and accept all his “questionable” conclusions in order to get our grades done. He had never been a pilot but he knew everything, according to stats, books and conclusions. Interesting wise most of what he spread did not stand up to the comments or real live experience and knowledge of former WW2 fighter pilots, Vietnam pilots or Bob C from Col. Springs, a U-2 pilot (Cuba-crisis) or from Johannes Steinhoff during his time in Springs, not to mention my uncle and others.

Quote:
but we're talking about combat pilots here... We're talking about killers.

No we are having a poll for the best pilot - If that implements a Killer to you
then that is your personal interpretation - so you should vote for a pilot who shot down another pilot dangling at a parachute, or hunting down a damaged a/c with 6-8 others, or strangling a pilot - which by the way would make a Russian or US Pilot the best.

Because mathematically and by equations this would indeed proof them as the best Killers.

Not some German pilot, since historians and academic writers consider them to be Ehrenmaenner und Helden der Luefte (Man of Honor and Heros of the air)

Regards
Kruska

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Oh yeah..I do remember one of those, he had been a lecturer at the USAF Academy in Colorado Springs, and being his Students we had to listen and accept all his “questionable” conclusions in order to get our grades done. He had never been a pilot but he knew everything, according to stats, books and conclusions. Interesting wise most of what he spread did not stand up to the comments or real live experience and knowledge of former WW2 fighter pilots, Vietnam pilots or Bob C from Col. Springs, a U-2 pilot (Cuba-crisis) or from Johannes Steinhoff during his time in Springs, not to mention my uncle and others.

Are you saying that because this guy was wrong about some things, that all academic military historians must be wrong about all things? That's quite a leap of inductive reasoning.

Originally Posted by Kruska

No we are having a poll for the best pilot -

It is my understanding that we're talking about the best fighter pilots. It's kind of hard to shoot down a lot of enemy planes and not kill someone. Good fighter pilots are killers. They're not good because they're killers; they're killers because they're good.

At least that's how most people here seem to interpreting the polls. Very few people are suggesting bomber pilots or test pilots or instructors as being the best pilots of the war.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Kruska

The present poll is based on Pilots that according to other forum members opinion/believes are supposed to be amongst the best, now taking the above into account why shouldn’t a non German pilot be amongst them or even the best? just because off less Kills?

Dont hold your breath. That is what we have all been trying to say to him.

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Check it out (especially in the first round): Many of the questionable choices up there were voted for by people who have less than three posts here.

That makes your opinion better? On whose authority?

[drgondog]

Bar - for me. He lived and scored in the most lethal air battles during the battle for air supremacy over Germany - when he was encountering not just Mustangs, Lightnings and Jugs flown by good pilots over Germany, but also the 'golden BB's from hundreds of B-17s and B-24s.